F-117A retiring. A world mourns.

[LordShiva]

@ trolling Asher

[Thue]

Originally posted by Asher
The F-22 is better all around. More payload, faster, better stealth...

No sense in keeping the F-117a around. B-52 still doesn't have a comparable replacement...

The F-117 has a bigger internal payload capacity than the F-22. If the F-22 uses external mounts then it loses its stealth.

[Jon Miller]

Hmm, and the F-117 had a relatively small payload (Reason why it was only useful for percision bombing).

JM

[Kuciwalker]

That, and it's stealth. What's the point of spending tons of money on stealthing an airplane and then loading it up with dumb bombs?

[Elok]

Asher, that plane whose pics you posted looks like the Space Shuttle's developmentally disabled little brother. Like they designed it by buying a kids' model space shuttle kit and a Vietnam-era Phantom kit and mixing them together. With a hint of those really fugly huge-wing spy aircraft we had in the sixties. Forget what they were called.

Which is not to say that the plane's performance would be poor (look at how well the F-117 did, after all), but really, ew. Whereas the Raptor looks freaking awesome; it's all but identical to the Civ2 Stealth Fighter pic.

[Kuciwalker]

Are you talking about togglecaps's pic?

[thesilentone]

Without british engineering the avro arrow would never have existed. That said, the fact that america refused to buy it and quietly arranged for it to be shelved (even though it was by far the best design at that time, decades till it was equalled) is particularly shameful. Defying the NATO weapons development treaties, all to protect it's own industries.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Elok
Asher, that plane whose pics you posted looks like the Space Shuttle's developmentally disabled little brother. Like they designed it by buying a kids' model space shuttle kit and a Vietnam-era Phantom kit and mixing them together.

Considering this plane predated all of those by quite some years, that tells you how many things they got right with it...

[Asher]

Originally posted by thesilentone
Without british engineering the avro arrow would never have existed. That said, the fact that america refused to buy it and quietly arranged for it to be shelved (even though it was by far the best design at that time, decades till it was equalled) is particularly shameful. Defying the NATO weapons development treaties, all to protect it's own industries.

Considering it was developed in Canada by Canadians funded by Canada, I find the "British Engineering" aspect notably lacking.

As an interesting side note, many of the Avro engineers who worked on the Arrow were headhunted by NASA after the cancellation and played major roles in the Apollo programs (including the top role) and space shuttle design...

Which, I think, is why people think it looks kind of like the space shuttle...

[Thorn]

First they can the stealth Comanche attack helicopter, and then they cancel this, this country is going to hell in a handbasket with this damn administration!!!

[thesilentone]

Originally posted by Asher

Considering it was developed in Canada by Canadians funded by Canada, I find the "British Engineering" aspect notably lacking.

1] ORIGINS
* During World War II, Avro of Britain built some production of their Lancaster bomber at the Victory Aircraft factory in Canada. In late 1945, British Avro bought the plant from the Canadian government and established Avro Canada. The Canadian government took over Avro Canada in 1954


*cough*

And the engines (arguably the most important part) were canadian made... not

[thesilentone]

Originally posted by Thorn
First they can the stealth Comanche attack helicopter, and then they cancel this, this country is going to hell in a handbasket with this damn administration!!!

Waaa? Why?

[Asher]

So Canadians working at Avro Canada developed the Avro Arrow during a point where the company was wholly owned by the Canadian Government.

British involvement is what?

Regarding the engines, which was the most important part:

Following the advice of the Report, in March 1944, the Canadian government formed Turbo Research as a crown corporation in Leaside, now a part of downtown Toronto.

Boyd quickly outlined two "paper designs", the TR.1 based on Whittle's centrifugal-flow design, and the TR.2 using an axial-flow design. The more promising axial-flow design led to work on the TR.3, a larger version of the TR.2. As work progressed, Boyd moved onto his own project, a smaller axial-flow design called the TR.4, later known as the Chinook. Work on the TR.3 was later abandoned.

In 1945, the former Victory Aircraft plants in Malton were being converted into the new A.V. Roe Canada (Avro) plants. In the spring of 1946, the government decided to turn all engine development over to private industry, and sold Turbo Research to Avro. Paul Dillworth remained as chief engineer of the newly christened Gas Turbine Division, which was moved to Avro's plants just outside what is today Toronto Pearson International Airport.

Work on the TR.4 continued through this period, but in the summer, Avro asked them to produce a new 6,500 lbf (28.9 kN) engine for their CF-100 Canuck interceptor design. The resulting TR.5 Orenda design was essentially a scaled-up Chinook, with work continuing on the later to bring the production and test teams up to speed. The Chinook, the first Canadian-designed jet engine, first ran on March 1948, producing 2,600 lbf thrust.

The Orenda design was similar enough to the Chinook that prototype production was completed in less than a year. When it entered production, it was the most powerful engine in the world, a title it held until 1952. Almost 4,000 Orenda engines of various versions were built. In 1955, another reorganization led to the creation of Orenda Engines Ltd.,as well as Avro Aircraft Ltd.

In 1953, Avro Canada once again turned to Orenda to produce an engine for the Avro CF-105 Arrow project. Avro had originally intended to use one of three different engines all UK designs: Rolls-Royce RB-106, the Bristol B.0L.4 Olympus and a license-built version of the Olympus the Curtiss-Wright J67. These ran into delays. [note: originally]

Orenda quickly responded with the PS.13 Iroquois design. Once again, Orenda was able to prototype the new engine in a short period of time, starting development in 1953, completing it in May 1954, and building and running the prototype by December 1954.

The Iroquois design was based on simplicity and lightness. With this in mind, Orenda pioneered work in the use of titanium, with 20% by weight of the Iroquois (mainly the compressor rotor blades) consisting of this metal. Titanium has light weight, high strength and good temperature and corrosion resistance. It was estimated that the engine would be 850 lb lighter than if steel had been used. During the early 1950s, this material was in short supply, and the lack of knowledge of its physical properties and fabrication techniques created problems which had to be overcome. It was also very expensive relative to the more common materials such as steel and aluminum.

It was recognized that if the engine part could be designed with titanium, then the supporting structure could also be lightened, with an overall saving in weight. Other parts, such as gearbox casings were made with a magnesium alloy. Inconel was another light metal used to make the blades in the low pressure turbine assembly and the metal insulation blanket found at the rear of the engine. This heat resistant nickel-chrome alloy retains its strength at high temperatures and resists oxidation and corrosion. The primary reason for using these light metals was to save weight, and have an engine with a 5:1 thrust to weight ratio that could produce a sea level dry thrust of 19,250 lb (26,000 lb. with afterburner).

The design, development and manufacture of such an advanced jet engine was accomplished in an incredibly short time by the Orenda Iroquois engine team. The detailed design was completed in May 1954, and the first run was achieved in December 1954. The earlier Orenda 9 had more parts but produced less power. For example, the earlier engine weighed 2,560 lb. (1,160 kg) and produced 6,355 lb (2 883 kg) static thrust. The Iroquois weighed 5,900 lb. (2,675 kg) but was reported to have produced 30,000 lb (13 608 kg) static thrust with afterburner for take off. (The earlier engine did not have an afterburner.) The thrust was enormous for an engine of that time, and the highest dry thrusts produced in North America were recorded.

During the testing period, the Iroquois was the most powerful jet engine in the world, rated at 19,250 lbf (85.6 kN) dry, 25,000 lbf (111 kN) afterburning. It was aerodynamically matched for peak performance at 50,000 feet (15,200 m) altitude and Mach 2 speed. After some 7,000 hours of development testing, up to a simulated altitude of 70,000 feet (21,300 m) and a forward speed of Mach 2.3, the program was canceled, along with the Arrow on "Black Friday," 20 February 1959.

The name, "Iroquois", should've been the biggest hint that it was Canadian, not UKian.

[Colonâ„¢]

[edit] meeuhh, never mind - should hit "refresh" before posting

[Asher]

Canada was not just a UK colony. Read up on your history.