a quick question about homosexuality in Leviticus

[johncmcleod]

Hi, I think the conservative Christians are inconsistent with their reading of Leviticus. They use Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." to condemn homsexuality. However, in the same paragraph, Leviticus 18:19 states "You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness." Does the anti-homosexual camp also believe that it is immoral to try and have sex with a woman in her period?

Also, something I just thought of, Leviticus 18:22 doesn't necessarily condemn homosexuality outright. It says 'don't lie with a man as with a woman,' and that might simply mean missionary position. If it said 'don't lie with a man for it is an abomination,' that would be one thing. But the fact that the only condemn lying with a man as with a woman could mean that they are only condemning the standard man-woman position, aka the missionary position. What are your thoughts on this?

[Berzerker]

Also, something I just thought of, Leviticus 18:22 doesn't necessarily condemn homosexuality outright. It says 'don't lie with a man as with a woman,' and that might simply mean missionary position.

Yes, they're being inconsistent in the level of condemnation...

Btw, Lev dont condemn lesbians

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Re: a quick question about homosexuality in Leviticus

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Hi, I think the conservative Christians are inconsistent with their reading of Leviticus. They use Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." to condemn homsexuality. However, in the same paragraph, Leviticus 18:19 states "You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness." Does the anti-homosexual camp also believe that it is immoral to try and have sex with a woman in her period?

My understanding is that Orthodox Jews do take the mestrual prohibition seriously. As for biblical-literalist Christians, I have no idea.

And, as a lapsed Catholic American, I count the fact that I've had more contact with Orthodox Jews than with biblical-literalist Christians as one of my life's great blessings.

[Ben Kenobi]

Also, something I just thought of, Leviticus 18:22 doesn't necessarily condemn homosexuality outright. It says 'don't lie with a man as with a woman,' and that might simply mean missionary position. If it said 'don't lie with a man for it is an abomination,' that would be one thing. But the fact that the only condemn lying with a man as with a woman could mean that they are only condemning the standard man-woman position, aka the missionary position. What are your thoughts on this?

Uh I don't see where scripture says the only position you can have sex with a woman is in missionary.

[SlowwHand]

Cycle comes and I'm waiting for the world to turn. It's not for me.

[Nubclear]

Homosexuality is an affront to the LORD, and homosexuals shall surely be stoned with utmost haste.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute...



Does this mean the Bible doesn't condemn lesbianism?

[Berzerker]

as long as they dont become witches

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Homosexuality is an affront to the LORD, and homosexuals shall surely be stoned with utmost haste.

And Lo, a thousand bongs gurgled.

[Starchild]

Personally, as someone who's never lied with a woman, I think the whole thing condemns bisexuals.

[lord of the mark]

Re: a quick question about homosexuality in Leviticus

Originally posted by johncmcleod
Hi, I think the conservative Christians are inconsistent with their reading of Leviticus. They use Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." to condemn homsexuality. However, in the same paragraph, Leviticus 18:19 states "You shall not approach a woman to uncover her nakedness while she is in her menstrual uncleanness." Does the anti-homosexual camp also believe that it is immoral to try and have sex with a woman in her period?

re the menstruation, I can say that yes, Orthodox jews do take it seriously, as do quite a few Cons Jews, even some who want to change the halacha on gays.

As for positions, theres no such description of specific poisitions in the Torah. There ARE some (non-Orthodox) rabbis who read the verse as banning only SOME homosexual acts *cough* and allowing others. While others suggest that having the halacha suggest that certain acts arent really sex will be confusing for our children. Other rabbis would read "as with a woman" as implying that for men who arent bisexual, and dont lie with women, the ban doesnt apply. While some of the attempts to interpret around the verse sound artificial, R. Artson, Dean of the Univ of Judaism in LA, says that such attempts are justified by broader principles - the Torah speaks repeatedly of G-ds compassion, and so any law that appears to contradict compassion should be reinterpreted.


The Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, which is the supreme legal body of Conservative Judaism, is set to rule on this question before the end of the year, and so we can expect to hear more about it in the next few weeks. My rabbi has already given two sermons on it.

[lord of the mark]

Re: a quick question about homosexuality in Leviticus

Starchild - Thats actually been seriously argued by some Conservative Rabbis, IIUC.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute...



Does this mean the Bible doesn't condemn lesbianism?

absolutely. The banning of lesbianism in Jewish law is instituted later, by the early rabbis, based on general discouragement of "lewdness" - its NOT as basic on the ban on male homosexuality.

If you spend much time on Soc.culture.Jewish.moderated you may encounter a woman who is Orthodox, very rightwing on Israeli politics, and a lesbian. She has claimed to have word from an Orthodox rabbi saying that Lesbianism is licit (despite the early rabbinic ban) but that he cant say so publicly. No one else on the group believed her, but who knows?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Okay, so the God of the Jews seems to have no problem with hot girl-on-girl action. Now I finally understand why you're the Chosen People.

So, where do Christian fundies draw their biblical support for condemning lesbianism?

[Jon Miller]

I do know that all of us sin.. whether homosexual activity is sin is honestly between a person and God (just like any other sin). The only 'sins' which we should act on are ones that directly negatively impact others (stealing, killing, adultery, etc). (and a number of those shouldn't be legistlated)

However, I do support homosexuals much more than bisexuals. For one thing, I don't really think bisexuality inherently exists (I think is derives from hedonism/confusion over sexuality). On the other hand, I think it is proved without doubt that (for some) homosexual inclinations is the result natural mutation (it is common in other animals for whom it provides no apparent evolutionary benefit).

Even if it isn't ideal, I don't see how a homosexual can be blamed for their inclinations. The hate that some Christians (and other religionists) have towards homosexuals above almost all others sickens me.

I think a lot of what is important is a monogamous caring relationship full of trust that provides support. Homosexuals can engage in this, and should have soceities support for this (I am in favor of Gay Marriage). I have doubts that someone who is bisexual is as capable of this, as they are inherently unsatisfied with just one partner. Additionally, if it turns out they are confused.. then what if their partner is the wrong sex?

Additionally, most men I know who have claimed to be bisexual are really gay (this number is coming down as society becomes more confused, more than before are straight, I think) and have later come out as so. On the other hand, a large portion of the female 'bisexuals' I have known are really straight, and obviously so.

Despite finding women making out with eachother a turn on, I think that bisexuality is harmful.. and think it is much worthier of condemnation than homosexuality.

peace,
Jon Miller