Islam Unacceptable.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson



Catholic fundamentalists either make angry protests against abortion and gay parades, or go to some third world country and organise humanitarian aid for it.
Muslim fundamentalists burn churches and kill nuns

He speaks true here - in the US, AFAICT, abortion clinic bombings, etc are the province of the fundie Protestant fringe, and are uniformlly condemned by the Church, and even fringier Opus Dei types wont openly support such things.

Now back in the good old days Catholics volunteered to support the Francoists in Spain.

[Pekka]

Everyone bailed on Denmark. Especially Finland. Magazines expressed self censorship and quite remarkably made a point that it's not that they find the cartoons of bad taste or pointless, but that they were AFRAID to do it, afraid of their lives.

Our PM apologized from the world, as if they even knew some small magazines came up with some pics, a website was taken to court that did the same, PM condemned the press that they shouldn't publish, even though he is former journalist. FM apologized from the world etc...

It was like ****!!!!! I'm REALLY ashamed of my country right now. And everyone was in panic, as in hey let's ... let's bend over to every demand, people are protesting wildly! Few of them fubared themselves to death!

No. We need to stay in course and support Denmark if we are about to stand with our values and strengthen our democracy and not give it way so easily. We should have gone all the way to back them up militarily and **** some fundies up if that was the case. Bring it on I say. We'll fight to death and write the next chapter on oppressors getting their ass handed and a new lesson given, don't bring a stick to a gunfight.

[Dis]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


He speaks true here - in the US, AFAICT, abortion clinic bombings, etc are the province of the fundie Protestant fringe, and are uniformlly condemned by the Church, and even fringier Opus Dei types wont openly support such things.

Now back in the good old days Catholics volunteered to support the Francoists in Spain.

when was the last abortion clinic bombing? That's old news. That went out of style in the 90's.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dis


when was the last abortion clinic bombing? That's old news. That went out of style in the 90's.

Ah, for the lost times of Clintonism, the Dot Com boom, domestic terrorism, Y2K paranoia, Windows 95, health insurance bolshevism, heroic Tony Blair, it all seems like only yesterday.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Dis
when was the last abortion clinic bombing? That's old news. That went out of style in the 90's.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_viol.htm

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


He speaks true here - in the US, AFAICT, abortion clinic bombings, etc are the province of the fundie Protestant fringe, and are uniformlly condemned by the Church, and even fringier Opus Dei types wont openly support such things.

Now back in the good old days Catholics volunteered to support the Francoists in Spain.

IIRC Catholics have undertaken violent attacks of abortion clinics also. AFAIK only a total of 4 people have died as a result of attacks on abortion clinics or doctors, of these two were killed by a Catholic man who shot up a facility in New England then drove down to Virginia and killed a clinic's secretary.

Furthermore there haven't been any attacks in the US in over 10 years.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Cort Haus

It never ceases to amaze me how radical Muslims and their numerous western apologists get apoplectic about deaths of Muslims by non-Muslims, but are completely unmoved by deaths of Muslims at the hands of other Muslims (Iraq, Darfur etc).

And who here exactly evr does that? Because I am really at a loss to think of anyone. Even Mobius does not go around being apoplectic about "Muslim deaths" Every so often you make a good point, but then you get to your "happy place" were reason appears to disappear.

Sad that Admiral had by far the most important and insightful post here, and it is totally ignored.

Islamism is a modern (as in, it has little real basis in Islam as a 1400 year old religion) political movement born of the failures in the ME of all the other modes of politics attempted, like Socialism and western style devlopment by authoritarian strongmen. Those western imports have failed to really improve the lives of he average citizen, so they turn to another ideogy that promises a fix, a solution to the problem. Islamists are in most of the ME too weak to overthrow the exiting authoritarian regimes, be they US backed (KSA or Egypt) or not (Syria), so they resort to terrorism, which is a weapon of the weak. And Cort is correct that most jihadist are educated males, because it does take education to accep killing yourself for a political theory, which is what Islamism is.

The west will "win" this war of ideas not by *****ing at islamism, or thinking it stupid, or by military force, but by actually applying western liberal values to the middle east over time, supporting the construction of institutions, not regimes, and not being hypocritical. Sadly I see no western regime willing to do so currently.

[Winston]

Cort Haus, that was a fine post, #51. Several excellent points raised that are too often overlooked..

[Dr Strangelove]

Are there any recent polls concerning what the "man on the street" of Karachi, Cairo, Tehran, Istanbul, Riyadh and etc. thinks about the future of relations between the west and the Islamic world? How many believe that a wider war is justifiable, inevitable or desirable? This is what truly matters.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Heresson
please, explain ther alleged hypocrisy

You don't understand that violently protesting comments about Islamic radicals being violent is hypocracy?

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by GePap
Islamism is a modern (as in, it has little real basis in Islam as a 1400 year old religion) political movement born of the failures in the ME of all the other modes of politics attempted, like Socialism and western style devlopment by authoritarian strongmen.
...
most jihadist are educated males, because it does take education to accept killing yourself for a political theory, which is what Islamism is.

Egypt 1928 - the 'Mission Statement' of the Muslim Brotherhood :

“God is our objective; the Quran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Struggle is our way; and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations”

The idea of death-as-aspiration can be seen here to be central to the original doctrine. It's not this which is characteristic of western education and influence, but the internationalisation of the 'struggle', and affectations of western liberal values.

The 90's concept of 'humanitarian war' is basically a Western version of 'Jihad', if you think about it. Or should I say that the modern Jihadist is basically the Islamic equivalent of Tony Blair. That is, to take up the sword for a 'noble cause', rather than the more traditional business of taking up a sword to resolve your own disputes over land-ownership.

The Muj in Afghanistan were the first internationally-mobilised Islamist army. The Muj in Bosnia was the second, and by now these two western-organised militias had taken on a momentum of their own.

Now throw in the affected liberal values of sympathy for the suffering underdog. Under the dhimmi system, there was no pity, respect, love or understanding for the Jew or the Serb living under Islamic rule, just contempt. Yet today, Islamists play to a western human-rights gallery when they portray their relationships to Jews and Serbs as passive victims of cruel oppressors, with the victims being deserving of understanding and international support.

Another way the west has shot itself in the foot is its own promotion of a thou-shalt-not-offend creed. This paradigm, which has grown into a western obsession, was not invented by Islamists, yet gets invoked constantly over cartoons, and popes, and little piggy toys in offices that get banned because they give 'offense'.

So while Islamism was born 'over there', it has grown up 'over here' into a stroppy, nihilistic teenager who wants to break things to let out his rage at the world being 'so unfair'.

One final point about the 'cause and effect' argument that gets invoked endlessly to blame US Imperialism for Islamic rage and terrorism: The Islamic world is not the only location where the US has been involved, often to the detriment of the locals. There were a very large number of people in Central America who had a seriously hard time as the result of US-backed regimes and terrorists. How many Nicaraguans and El Salvadoreans are 'understandably' crashing aircraft into buildings to let out their frustrations? None. How many Serbs are blowing up Americans in Iraq to get even for having their own country bombed? None.

Oh yeah, and how much credit do the Islamists give the West for helping them with their policies in 80's Afghanistan, then 90's Bosnia and Kosovo? None.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


IIRC Catholics have undertaken violent attacks of abortion clinics also. AFAIK only a total of 4 people have died as a result of attacks on abortion clinics or doctors, of these two were killed by a Catholic man who shot up a facility in New England then drove down to Virginia and killed a clinic's secretary.

Furthermore there haven't been any attacks in the US in over 10 years.

Most clinic bombings didnt result in deaths, so the above is a limited sample. IIUC almost all were by Protestants.

I still dont see why 10 years ago is the deep and irrelevant past. No wonder folks here have forgotten the Oslo peace process - that was like, 14 years ago, man, ancient history.

LOTM
Who remembers watching the live broadcasts on TV when Nixon arrived in China - and my Dad saying the real miracle was not the politics, but the technology that let us see this live from around the world.

[One_more_turn]

My opinion of Islam drops lower every day.

Maybe the rest of the world has to get rid of it.

How much time do you think they still have to change it?

[SlowwHand]

It is NOT the religion. It's a minority of people who bastardize it's teachings.
I can't believe some of you call me a redneck, and I'm one of the few that seems to grasp this fact.

It's like saying all Canadians suck. Well, wait. Let me think of a better example.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
It is NOT the religion. It's a minority of people who bastardize it's teachings.
I can't believe some of you call me a redneck, and I'm one of the few that seems to grasp this fact.

It's like saying all Canadians suck. Well, wait. Let me thnk of a better example.

QFT. The redneck speaks truth