Firefox's evil quotient goes up 1000%

[Asher]

I don't like the interface now and I didn't back then. They've improved it, but it still has a long way to go.

I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to you.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Asher

I'm not sure why this is a difficult concept to you.

Must be because I'm not as intelligent as you. Or maybe I'm not as full of myself as you are and don't want to piss on people that may have a different opinion as mine.

Nah, probably the first...

[Asher]

Who am I pissing on, exactly?

Do you really consider it to be that massive an insult if I don't like something you do?

[Wiglaf]

kuciwalker misread the article lol

the new ie beta sux

ps Firefox shortcut keys? what the hell do they do, and what are they?

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I could use Opera, but FF's shortcut keys are trained into me.

Opera changed some of their shortcuts in version 9 to make it more compatible with Firefox. Most of the shortcut keys should be the same now.

E.g. Ctrl+T opens a new tab, and Ctrl+W closes it now. Ctrl+B won't get you the bookmarks sidebar though. And of course, you can change all of Opera's shortcuts, but then you're probably too lazy to be doing that.

Originally posted by Asher
Yes, it does. Opera 7 and below are virtually textbook examples of poor HCI design, 8 and 9 are better but still need work.

This isn't an opinion as much as understanding usability design of interfaces.

I won't argue Opera 7's interface, because I think that's irrelevant. But do you know any articles or websites from usability experts that discuss Opera's interface? I couldn't find any, but if you know them I'd be interested in reading them (and I mean that perfectly seriously, not in any way sarcastic).

Or can you otherwise support that claim?


Oh, and 2 things I'll grant you. Firstly, Opera uses its own "skin" by default rather than the default Windows theme. That's not very proper in usability terms. But that should hardly be a problem for an experienced user like you, since it can be changed to use Windows' theme if you wish.

Secondly, Opera's drop-down boxes function differently from the usual Windows drop-downs. I think that's silly.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Asher
Do you really consider it to be that massive an insult if I don't like something you do?

I don't care if someone doesn't like something I like. It is the obnoxious way that you tell people that they are retarded if they happen to have a different opinion than yours.

I'm out of this thread...

[Asher]

Originally posted by Mercator
I won't argue Opera 7's interface, because I think that's irrelevant. But do you know any articles or websites from usability experts that discuss Opera's interface? I couldn't find any, but if you know them I'd be interested in reading them (and I mean that perfectly seriously, not in any way sarcastic).

Or can you otherwise support that claim?

Oh, and 2 things I'll grant you. Firstly, Opera uses its own "skin" by default rather than the default Windows theme. That's not very proper in usability terms. But that should hardly be a problem for an experienced user like you, since it can be changed to use Windows' theme if you wish.

Secondly, Opera's drop-down boxes function differently from the usual Windows drop-downs. I think that's silly.

You thought of two things right off the top. The non-conformant UI appearance to the rest of the native operating system is a biggy. The non-conformant UI behaviour is another biggy. Firefox pays attention to the little things like this: for example, in Windows options are usually under Tools -> Options. That's where they are in Firefox. In Linux apps, it's usually under Edit -> Preferences. That's where they are in Firefox.

Firefox's behaviour changes depending on the platform it's running, so it matches the rest of the platform in terms of consistency in appearance as well as functionality.

Not sure of any formal usability studies available online (and not part of an academic journal), and I've got no time to look it up as I have to go to the airport.

There's informal complaints though: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/005480.html

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by Hueij
I don't care if someone doesn't like something I like. It is the obnoxious way that you tell people that they are retarded if they happen to have a different opinion than yours.

I'm out of this thread...

Or rather you are a hypersensitive Opera fanatic who can't take criticism of your holy product.

[Elok]

How come religion threads are stupid, but these aren't? I mean, it might actually, objectively matter if we worship the wrong god, and it's about as easy to find the objective reality of it.

[Mercator]

Originally posted by Asher
The non-conformant UI appearance to the rest of the native operating system is a biggy. The non-conformant UI behaviour is another biggy.

But neither of these are absolutes. They're trade-offs.
If they were absolute rules, Windows would still look like Windows 3.1. Sometimes, things just need to be changed.

The UI appearance they could easily change simply by changing the default. I assume they don't do that because their custom one looks prettier. And that's another "biggy" in attracting and keeping the attention of new users. I think most of the UI behaviour is the same, just not the drop-downs.

Firefox pays attention to the little things like this: for example, in Windows options are usually under Tools -> Options.

Opera has it in the same position, at the bottom of the Tools menu. They're two different and differently named items though, having appearance and preferences separately to avoid clutter in the options property sheet dialog.

Firefox's behaviour changes depending on the platform it's running, so it matches the rest of the platform in terms of consistency in appearance as well as functionality.

Cool. I didn't know that.

Not sure of any formal usability studies available online (and not part of an academic journal), and I've got no time to look it up as I have to go to the airport.

Yeah, I didn't really expect any either (which doesn't say anything about Opera being good or bad, clearly). Hmm, I don't even know if or how often applications/products are formally reviewed and the results published. I should look around a bit.

Have a good flight. Unless you're actually only picking someone up.

There's informal complaints though: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/005480.html

Hmm, I'd seen a few of that guy's other posts, not that one.

I can't say too much about it, though, because I can't remember what the default Opera UI looks like. I've had my own custom configuration probably since Opera 7.5, I think, when they started using its current skin.

And he's wrong about the menus. I'm only counting 9 submenus. Not very different from Firefox's 7. I'm guessing he counted the submenus for the default set of bookmarks that comes with Opera. It's only got 8 top-level menus by default, compared to Firefox's 7 (which is lacking a Window menu for its tab management, speaking of non-conformant UI). You get 3 more if you decide to use Opera for e-mail, IRC or newsfeeds.

And as far as total menu items, it's probably only the Window menu and the "Import and export", "Zoom" ("Text Size" in Firefox) and "Style" ("Page Style" in Firefox) submenu options that make the difference.