Middle East Continued Again...

[Kuciwalker]

Sorry, but "common talk" does not really count as any sort of evidence of world opinion.

... what?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And if we don't assume Israel has a credible deterrent, then your best case is that Israel is subjected to an all-out nuclear attack that destroys most or all of their nuclear capabilities. Wonderful.

No. The point is that having nukes alone isn't going to save Israel if all its neighbors just simply trully want it destroyed. If you live in 'peace' only because of your might, well, the problem is that no one is always mighty, and the second you are not, well, bye bye.

You need something other than brute force to live in peace for a long time.

[Kuciwalker]

My argument is that no one (except Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran and other Muslim extremists) wants to see Israel face an existential threat.

[Qilue]

Originally posted by GePap
You need something other than brute force to live in peace for a long time.

History has shown that the only ways to live in peace are brute force, submission, extinction or extremely skillful diplomacy.

[Kuciwalker]

And utter pwnage worked pretty well on Egypt and Jordan.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Israel would win an air war. Israel will probably always be able to win an air war, especially given US military support. Plus, KSA's power can only wane in the long term as we move away from oil.

1. This isn't a freaking war game simulator. And the point is that your second statement is false. There is no particular reason why israel will "always win an air war". US support is important, but its conditional. Second, if Arab states improve their economies, they would be able to afford fancy militaryt equipment from other sellers and neutralize any advantage. Again, the poitn (which you seem hard pressed to ingore) is that power balances shift with time. The uS used to account for 50% of global economic activty in 1945. Today its 20%. That is a graph pointing downward.

I know about the evangelical lobby and am ignoring it. It would be political suicide for any American president to sit back while the second Holocaust occured.

Really? Why? IN the end, would this "second holocaust" matter more to most American than internal politics? Hardly.

Israel doesn;t have SLBM capability.

Maybe because the Palestinians in power have Israel's destruction as their raison d'etre.

And why shouldn't they?

No one ever asked the people living in Palestine in 1918 if they wanted their land to be slated for a homeland for someone else by a foreign imperial power. NO kidding they view the state that came about as utterly illegitimate. Too bad the people who came have not done anything to remove this view from the palestinians.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Qilue


History has shown that the only ways to live in peace are brute force, submission, extinction or extremely skillful diplomacy.

Only "extremely skillfull diplomacy" actually works. Any state that has survived only cause of the other ones is no longer with us. If your neighbors accept that you have a right to live there, then you live in peace.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


Sorry, but "common talk" does not really count as any sort of evidence of world opinion.

The Sheeba Farms are not Israeli territory (either Syrian or Lebanese). Mt. Meron is in Israel.

You are really funny Are you for real claiming that common peoples opinions doesn't count when it comes to "world opinion" ? Are you for real claiming that only professional opinion makers are the real truth ? If you really think so, then you have just deemed your own opinions worthless.

I really don't care a bit if the sheeba farms are syrian, Israeli or Lebanese - the fact was that hizb fired the rockets. The fact is that they did it wich you claimed that they didn't. Hizb isn't a legal part of the Lebanon government, so they doesn't have any rigth to do such a thing.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
And utter pwnage worked pretty well on Egypt and Jordan.

Is this why the Speaker of the Egyptian parliment is demanding that Mubarak renounce the peace treaty with Israel?

MOst Egyptians don;t support the peace treaty. And the government of Egypt is on shaky grounds. Pwnage failed with Syria, and force failed miserably in Lebanon.

[Qilue]

Originally posted by GePap
Only "extremely skillfull diplomacy" actually works. Any state that has survived only cause of the other ones is no longer with us. If your neighbors accept that you have a right to live there, then you live in peace.

This is where the problems start. Hezbollah and Hamas haven't really shown much inclination towards accepting Israel's existance.

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


You are really funny Are you for real claiming that common peoples opinions doesn't count when it comes to "world opinion" ? Are you for real claiming that only professional opinion makers are the real truth ? If you really think so, then you have just deemed your own opinions worthless.

Yes. Because this the ONLY EVIDENCE that anyone can point to. You can "claim" that you hear "common talk" all you want, you simply can't show proof.

I am sorry if I ask for somehting other can conjecture for you to back your arguements.

I really don't care a bit if the sheeba farms are syrian, Israeli or Lebanese - the fact was that hizb fired the rockets. The fact is that they did it wich you claimed that they didn't.

I said they did not fire at Northern Israel. Sheeba farms isn't northern Israel. NOw, Mt. Hermon is. Don't spoil you find by making dumb comments about basic geography.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
1. This isn't a freaking war game simulator. And the point is that your second statement is false. There is no particular reason why israel will "always win an air war". US support is important, but its conditional. Second, if Arab states improve their economies, they would be able to afford fancy militaryt equipment from other sellers and neutralize any advantage.

If the only way to prevent Israel from launching its nukes if it falls is to conduct an all-out nuclear first strike, and we assume that Israel will fall, then the best-case scenario is that Israel is hit by an all-out nuclear first strike. Duh.

Again, the poitn (which you seem hard pressed to ingore) is that power balances shift with time. The uS used to account for 50% of global economic activty in 1945. Today its 20%. That is a graph pointing downward.

Oh, what you learn as a liberal arts major.

Really? Why? IN the end, would this "second holocaust" matter more to most American than internal politics? Hardly.

BAM, hello.

And why shouldn't they?

Because genocide is wrong, perhaps? Because Israel is big and powerful and they're small and weak? Because they'd be a hell of a lot better off if they stopped shooting at Israel?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by germanos

No, it's not. Like it's been said here before, the area doesn't loose it's status of civilian area. Indescrimanate targeting of such an area is criminal.

shivers

Perhaps you'd like to site the law that says civilian areas occupied by military targets are out of bounds.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Is this why the Speaker of the Egyptian parliment is demanding that Mubarak renounce the peace treaty with Israel?

MOst Egyptians don;t support the peace treaty. And the government of Egypt is on shaky grounds. Pwnage failed with Syria, and force failed miserably in Lebanon.

Are you actually suggesting that Egypt will renounce the peace treaty? Just to get your position on record.

[Kuciwalker]

I said they did not fire at Northern Israel. Sheeba farms isn't northern Israel. NOw, Mt. Hermon is. Don't spoil you find by making dumb comments about basic geography.

Pot meet kettle. Israel and the UN consider them part of Israel. Moreover, even if Hezbollah doesn't consider it Israeli land, they sure as hell were shooting at Israeli citizens.