Middle East Continued Again...

[GePap]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
They state plainly they want Israel exterminated. Arguing they don't want it is pointless, and dumb.

Sloww being slow...wow.

End of a state does not equal end of a people. Seems a simple enough thing to say, but for some reason a variety of you have a great deal of problem understanding something so simple.

Is some basic intellectual honesty too much to ask?

Someone may advocate values we abhor without being invariably genocidal killers. Its intellectually dishonest to make claims you can't back.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Except they don't want to kill millions of people, and the fact you keep repeating this self-serving lie is great evidence why neither side is heading towards peace.

Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

http://www.ict.org.il/Articles/Hiz_letter.htm

[Kuciwalker]

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel.

And Iraq's army was the 4th largest in the world in 1991.

As stated before, the Islamist place the Jews as second class citizens, befitting their medieval views.

BUt I am waiting for the evidence of genocide.

There aren't enough Jews there for a good pogrom.

[Kuciwalker]

Incidentally, Iran is by far the largest country in the Middle East (2nd largest if you count Egypt, but not by too much). Of course they have the 2nd largest number of Jews after Israel.

[Barnabas]

Iran and many muslims do think the territory of Israel is dar al-islam, that is belongs to the islamic world due to ruling it for more than 1300 years.

It is a "reconquista" thing, similar to the wars against the crusader state of Jerusalem.

[Barnabas]

I disagree that Iran wants to exterminate jews, you are reading things that are not there.

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Qilue
Unless someone can think of another solution, peace may only come when Israelies and Palestinians stop killing each other.

Then I guess it ain't gonna happen.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

I'm not saying they are to blame.

I'm merely saying that if what I heard as a rumor is true - that the building collapsed several hours after it was bombarded - then all the people who occupied the building in the hours after the bombing - must take some responsability for getting caught in the wreckage.

Israel does alot more than it has to, to inform civilians where is it going to attack, and what is it going to attack so they can save their lives. If people disregard that, they have some responsability, they had 'some' choise.

Isarel's warnings are a minimum they can do, and I acknoledge it does help to reduce civilian casualties. However, it's silly to assume that dropping some leaflets makes the death of civilians a shared burden between the perpetraters and the victims.
You're possibly better informed on the nature of Israels warnings, but as far as I know the leaflets call on total evacuation of southern Lebanon (beneath the Litani river?). That's a pretty large region.

Howaever, if folkes they go to sleep in a building which is prone to collapse because it was heavily bombarded then they have to take some blame for the consequences.

No, they are not. Assuming it's true there was a laps between the explosion and the collapse, then there could be many reasons not to flee the building. First of all: whereto? For all practical purposes, anywhere near the building was prone for another attack given the proximity of the Hezbollah. If they fled to the neighbours and that got hit, they would have to accept 'blame' for hiding there as well. Secondly, the building did still stand and it was night. Now these civilians, most probably shaken by the war knocking at their door are expected to asses the structural integrity of there hide-out. Is it a natural trait of Lebanese to have a degree in structural enginering? Thirdly, is it possible that the victims were either dead or unconsious because of the initial blast?

Now, if it's the case that these 60 people ran happily into the struck building waiting for the roof to fall on their heads, then yes, I agree with you they have themselves to blame. I find that an unlikely scenario.

Yes.
I can imagine that.
For instance my folkes have no means to leave Haifa and viably live for a month in another place.

However my folkes do not live next to an Israeli army base, and they still get targetted.

Even if your parents fell victim to a rocket and they did live next to an army base I would still not blame them for it.

For the record I will mention that I read that Hezbullah fighters were seen fleeing to the targetted building on several occassions.

...

I think that eyewittness accounts from the arab street are sometimes of dubious nature. Call me paranoid.

I don't know who to beleive either. Call me sceptic.

When were you under fire?

Beirut, during operation Grapes of Wrath (1996).

[Sandman]

It's perfectly possible American fundies will find a way to channel their hatred of meddling, intellectual liberals onto meddling, intellectual Jews. A few small changes to the way scripture is interpreted, and bang, a new wave of American anti-semitism is ready to roll.

[notyoueither]

It's also entirely possible that Aussie barmen will go on a mass killing spree and depopulate entire districts of London.

[Ecthy]

I was looking forward to this, people from both sides of a war posting in the same thread.

We'll get more of this in the future. So far wars in the internet era have been mostly between industrialized states and the third world, but with the latter catching up we should see more confrontations like this soon.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I disagree that Iran wants to exterminate jews, you are reading things that are not there.

I was quoting Hezbollah.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Guardian, look its not as if I'm happy that we bombed that building.

I know that.

You're defending the action, but not necessarily the result.

I think I can follow this logic:
Is it possible to make a right decision and still get a wrong result?
Actually, yes, because any evaluation of the decision itself has to be based upon what was known to the decision maker at the time. Too often, it is only in hindsight that we will know what was right to do, so decision making is about finding out what you think will be right to do and then doing your best with what you have.

The question is whether this was done in that particular case, and the answer can be yes even if the consequences later turned out to be rather horrible. As of right now, I can agree with you that we don't know enough to judge anyone.

I'm terribly sorry, and had we known in advance I'm sure that people would have acted against it.

I also believe this is true.

I never thought war was pretty and I'm sad we have to fight.

Obviously I am aware that lots of decisions are taken more recklessly than others by some people. I'm sorry for that and I think it does us harm.

I also tend to agree that on the grand scale - setting lebanon back so much is hurting its freedom and somewhat playing into the hands of Iran and Syria.

agreed.

Israeli actions aren't the most well thought through

OK, I did take some of the things you said out of the context you said them in, but I did not do so for the purpose of using it against you or making you look bad.

On the contrary, I feel these quotes say a lot about your integrity.

I think you're a stand up guy. You defend your country like any good soldier, but you're still able to see some of the wrong being done in its' name and to say so.

This is a good thing, because being able to see when something's not right and talk about it means you'll probably help make things better somewhere along the way.

Even in war, the world is not all black and white, is it?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

There aren't enough Jews there for a good pogrom.

Nonsense. 30,000 is more than enough. That is the thing thought, they haven;t had any. More evidence against you.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Incidentally, Iran is by far the largest country in the Middle East (2nd largest if you count Egypt, but not by too much). Of course they have the 2nd largest number of Jews after Israel.

Turkey is the largest states in the ME. Iran has more people than Egypt.

And Iran has the second largest Jewish population in the region (including bigger than Turkey's it seems) because all the Arab states threw out all their Jews and bar their re-entry.

Another strike at your claims, since the Ayatollahs in Iran have not even gone as far as the secular Arab regimes that expelled all their Jews.