Middle East Continued Again...

[Qilue]

You would have to wonder what another nation would do in the same circumstances.

Suppose after years of suicide bombings and such, Finnish terrorists start launching missles at St Petersberg or Mexican somethings start launching missles at San Deigo.

The words "carpet bombing" come to mind.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

No, I said most of the world would be perfectly happy if Israel disappeared and solved that little problem in the Mideast.

Sorry, but by that token they would not care if Hizbullah and the Lebanse were wipped out, as it would aos "solve" the problem.

That's a bit different from Arab armies marching through the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Unless Israel actually makes peace with its neighbors, its only a matter of time. 50 years, 100, years, 200, whichever, but its only a matter of time.

[Kuciwalker]

Sorry, but by that token they would not care if Hizbullah and the Lebanse were wipped out, as it would aos "solve" the problem.

They [the average Joe's] don't. However, there are a lot more Arab/Islamic countries and they have a lot more international influence (in no small part due to oil).

Unless Israel actually makes peace with its neighbors, its only a matter of time. 50 years, 100, years, 200, whichever, but its only a matter of time.

1) Why? As I said, they have a great track record for the past 60.

2) You'd better hope you're wrong.

[GePap]

1) Why? As I said, they have a great track record for the past 60.

The Arab in general are narrowing the quality gap in weaponry over time. KSA already spends more on military hardware than Israel, and it is only a matter of time until the Israeli nuclear monopoly in the ME ends.

2) You'd better hope you're wrong.

Why? The solution is Israel actually creating peace with its neighbors. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


That is were you are wrong. There is a reason why Israel lost the "hearts and minds" campaign on day 1. The world hears of IDF soldiers killed and captured. Within 24 hours they hear of Lebanon blockaded, the international airport bombed, and dozens of Lebanese civilians dead.

Israel continues to try to say it is the vitcim, but the immense disproportion of damage and destruction between northern Israel and southern Lebanon (and southern Beirut) makes Israel's statements look overblown and self-serving. NO doubt Israeli civilians in the north are suffering and HIzbullah's subsequent rokcets attacks aimed at large population areas are immoral , as they have no way of actually aiming at military targets, but fire indescriminately. Israel thought has failed to be more cautious with airpower than it should have been, given that airpower, even in the age of "smart weapons" remains a very blunt tool. NATO killed hundreds of civilians in it's campaign against Serbia, Israel was bound to kill hundreds of civlians with its campaign.

This is probably bad argumentation, but nevertheless - it's actually you that is wrong. The israelis didn't loose the "hearts and minds" of common people from day one - quite contrary, there was an acceptance that enough was enough and hizbollah had crossed the line. What really disturbs people is that because of hizb tactics with putting their prime military targets into civilian areas such as schools, hospitals and residential areas, then it is unavoidable that there are civilian losses.

Your claim about disproportion is also false because you only looks at the actual incidence with the kidnapped soldiers. You ignore the fact that hizb routinely has send missiles into northern israel and other kinds of incidents.

It is also claimed that the israeli reaction is senseless because they on an other more or less insident acted otherwise - well, maybe that insident learned them that that course of action didn't work - besides that, it was a whole other set of people that was in charge then - why should the current act likewise if they don't agree ?

It is quite true that artillery and arial attacks isn't as "kirugic" as some people thinks, and that is probably why israel has hesitated to do something for years, but when the limit are reached, then it's the tools that are available.

About our young apprentice, then I guess that only few americans would know about israel, if it wasn't for the fact that it is the area where jesus is supposed to have lived

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
The Arab in general are narrowing the quality gap in weaponry over time. KSA already spends more on military hardware than Israel, and it is only a matter of time until the Israeli nuclear monopoly in the ME ends.

You forgot Israel's closest ally. And that KSA doesn't border Israel. And that Israel's largest neighbor is peaceful with it, plus Jordan, so Israel is threatened on only one front, most of which is the Golan Heights.

Why? The solution is Israel actually creating peace with its neighbors. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Israel's death sets off hundreds of nuclear weapons in the Mideast. Wonderful. And you don't think Israel would be overjoyed to actually live in peace? They are creating peace, by killing the people whose raison d'etre is Israel's destruction.

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat


This is probably bad argumentation, but nevertheless - it's actually you that is wrong. The israelis didn't loose the "hearts and minds" of common people from day one - quite contrary, there was an acceptance that enough was enough and hizbollah had crossed the line. What really disturbs people is that because of hizb tactics with putting their prime military targets into civilian areas such as schools, hospitals and residential areas, then it is unavoidable that there are civilian losses.

What polls, and protests are you looking at? Cause its pretty clear form the objective evidence that outside of Israel and the US, world public opinion, if they pick out one side as the aggressor, they pick Israel.

Your claim about disproportion is also false because you only looks at the actual incidence with the kidnapped soldiers. You ignore the fact that hizb routinely has send missiles into northern israel and other kinds of incidents.

False. Hizbullah did, as Edan say, fire missiles into Northern Israel as PART of the raid to capture the soldiers. Before that Hizbullah had not fired rockets at northern Israel itself for years.

It is also claimed that the israeli reaction is senseless because they on an other more or less insident acted otherwise - well, maybe that insident learned them that that course of action didn't work - besides that, it was a whole other set of people that was in charge then - why should the current act likewise if they don't agree ?

When did I say any such thing?

About our young apprentice, then I guess that only few americans would know about israel, if it wasn't for the fact that it is the area where jesus is supposed to have lived

I am sure Kuciwalker knows more about Israel than the vast majority of people in the US, or in your own country, even if simply because most people don't really care about other countries and don't take the time or have the interest to learn.

That he has facts does not mean I think he makes good arguements with them.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


You forgot Israel's closest ally. And that KSA doesn't border Israel. And that Israel's largest neighbor is peaceful with it, plus Jordan, so Israel is threatened on only one front, most of which is the Golan Heights.

That Israel can count on its allience with the US to aid it, or that KSA will not get involved with Israel are both things that no one can count on for ever (after all, the US became Israel's sugar daddy only after 1967. Before that France was the arms dealer [and nuke dealer])/ I assume Israelis would like their country to last a few centuries.

Israel's death sets off hundreds of nuclear weapons in the Mideast.

That is a question of whether Israel has a robust second strike capability, which I don't think they do. Of course, no other ME state would be able to build a robust second strike capability any time soon either, even if they got nukes, so there would be a premium on hitting first.

Wonderful. And you don't think Israel would be overjoyed to actually live in peace? They are creating peace, by killing the people whose raison d'etre is Israel's destruction.

In 1982 the Shiites of southern Lebanon gave the Israeli's flowers when they invaded to drive out the PLO. 18 years later, Israel has no friends in southern Lebanon. Last time I looked, it took 20 years before the palestinians in the territories began to openly revolt, but eventually they did. Somewho all the people Israel killed actually didn;t lead to peace.

Neither side in this conflicts really wants peace. They are in a contests of victimization, to absolve themselves of all the moral crimes they have committed against the other side.

[Edan]

Originally posted by GePap


False. Hizbullah did, as Edan say, fire missiles into Northern Israel as PART of the raid to capture the soldiers. Before that Hizbullah had not fired rockets at northern Israel itself for years.

False (or very, very short years)

[Kuciwalker]

That Israel can count on its allience with the US to aid it, or that KSA will not get involved with Israel are both things that no one can count on for ever (after all, the US became Israel's sugar daddy only after 1967. Before that France was the arms dealer [and nuke dealer])/ I assume Israelis would like their country to last a few centuries.

How exactly is the KSA going to attack Israel again? Do I have to draw you a map?

And the US not supporting Israel: . We have the other half of the world's Jews - it'd be political suicide for any President to simply sit by when millions of Americans' relatives face a second Holocaust.

That is a question of whether Israel has a robust second strike capability, which I don't think they do.

They have subs with nukes. And if I were Israel, and Iran went nuclear, I'd be certain to have fighters carrying nuclear warheads airborne at all times, SAC-style.

Neither side in this conflicts really wants peace.

Tell that to Siro, Az, Eli, Solver, et al.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by GePap


What polls, and protests are you looking at? Cause its pretty clear form the objective evidence that outside of Israel and the US, world public opinion, if they pick out one side as the aggressor, they pick Israel.

Local debates in newspapers and TV, common talk. Most of the "israeli as the agressor" are typically coming from politicians and journalists that don't hide the fact that no matter what, then israel is to blame. I don't think that denmark is special in this, so I assume that the same goes for a lot of other countries.

Your claim about disproportion is also false because you only looks at the actual incidence with the kidnapped soldiers. You ignore the fact that hizb routinely has send missiles into northern israel and other kinds of incidents.

False. Hizbullah did, as Edan say, fire missiles into Northern Israel as PART of the raid to capture the soldiers. Before that Hizbullah had not fired rockets at northern Israel itself for years.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hizballah-rockets.htm

Hizballah fighters raided north Israel in a botched attempt to capture Israeli troops November 21, 2005, triggering the worst round of fighting since Israel pulled out from south Lebanon five years ago. Hizbollah also fired salvoes of Katyusha rockets into Israeli posts in the Shebaa Farms. On 28 May 2006 Hezbollah launched a Katyusha barrage at an IDF base on Mt. Meron. Israel responded immediately by hitting a number of Hezbollah positions along the border.

It is also claimed that the israeli reaction is senseless because they on an other more or less insident acted otherwise - well, maybe that insident learned them that that course of action didn't work - besides that, it was a whole other set of people that was in charge then - why should the current act likewise if they don't agree ?

When did I say any such thing?

That was a more common comment not nessecarily aimed against you.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
How exactly is the KSA going to attack Israel again? Do I have to draw you a map?

Please do take out a map and look at it and note just how small Jordan is. You really think the F-16 and F-15's in the Saudi Arsenal can't fly over the 20-30 miles that separate Eliat from Saudi Arabia? Do you have any idea of the range of modern air power? Not to speak, of course, of the basic range of an M1A1 tank, which iwhen kept suplied with fuel can certainly travel.

And the US not supporting Israel: . We have the other half of the world's Jews - it'd be political suicide for any President to simply sit by when millions of Americans' relatives face a second Holocaust.

There are going to be 300 million Americans. There are what? 8 million Jews? You overstimate the power of the "Jewish lobby." YOu would be more correct to speak about the Evangelical lobby, but in the end, they are waiting for the destruction of Israel. After all, that is the sign of the coming.

They have subs with nukes. And if I were Israel, and Iran went nuclear, I'd be certain to have fighters carrying nuclear warheads airborne at all times, SAC-style.

Israel doesn;t have SLBM capability. They are testing nuclear cruise missiles, but they have very few, and the warheads they would carry are Hiroshima sized weapon, according to this:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/israel/popeye-t.htm

As for "SAC" style having planes always in the air, the problem is Israel has very limited flyoever space. Plus aircraft can be shot down. Missiles are a better deterrent, but then the issue becomes how well can you guard your missiles from being taken out early on? There isn't much space to hide in Israel.

Tell that to Siro, Az, Eli, Solver, et al.

They can read. I really don;t see any of them ever saying: you know, we HAVE victimized the Palestinians for 50 years, lets get together with them and actually resolve this issue. It would be nice if any of them did, haven't read that yet. I assume if we actually had any palestinian posters they would be just as reticent to admit their faults.

[Kuciwalker]

Please do take out a map and look at it and note just how small Jordan is. You really think the F-16 and F-15's in the Saudi Arsenal can't fly over the 20-30 miles that separate Eliat from Saudi Arabia? Do you have any idea of the range of modern air power? Not to speak, of course, of the basic range of an M1A1 tank, which iwhen kept suplied with fuel can certainly travel.

Israel would win an air war. Israel will probably always be able to win an air war, especially given US military support. Plus, KSA's power can only wane in the long term as we move away from oil.

There are going to be 300 million Americans. There are what? 8 million Jews? You overstimate the power of the "Jewish lobby." YOu would be more correct to speak about the Evangelical lobby, but in the end, they are waiting for the destruction of Israel. After all, that is the sign of the coming.

I know about the evangelical lobby and am ignoring it. It would be political suicide for any American president to sit back while the second Holocaust occured.

Israel doesn;t have SLBM capability.

Who knows, actually? And they easily will in the timeframe we're talking about. I imagine a credible deterrent would become their #1 priority if Iran actually ever went nuclear.

They can read. I really don;t see any of them ever saying: you know, we HAVE victimized the Palestinians for 50 years, lets get together with them and actually resolve this issue.

Maybe because the Palestinians in power have Israel's destruction as their raison d'etre.

[GePap]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Local debates in newspapers and TV, common talk. Most of the "israeli as the agressor" are typically coming from politicians and journalists that don't hide the fact that no matter what, then israel is to blame. I don't think that denmark is special in this, so I assume that the same goes for a lot of other countries.

Sorry, but "common talk" does not really count as any sort of evidence of world opinion.

The Sheeba Farms are not Israeli territory (either Syrian or Lebanese). Mt. Meron is in Israel.

[Kuciwalker]

And if we don't assume Israel has a credible deterrent, then your best case is that Israel is subjected to an all-out nuclear attack that destroys most or all of their nuclear capabilities. Wonderful.