Middle East Continued Again...

[germanos]

Possibly this whole episode will end with the transfer of the Shaba Farms to Lebanon

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/744083.html

This hardly qualifies for a succesfull Israeli operation.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by germanos
This hardly qualifies for a succesfull Israeli operation.

This does.

Rice welcomed as a "positive step" the agreement by Hezbollah cabinet members to seek an immediate cease-fire that would include the disarming of militias.

In Beirut, Hezbollah politicians signed on to a proposed peace package earlier Saturday that includes strengthening an international force in south Lebanon and disarming the guerrillas, the government said.

The agreement, reached at a cabinet meeting, was the first time Hezbollah had agreed to a proposal for ending the crisis that includes the deploying of international forces.

[Eli]

Oy vey.

TYRE, Lebanon (CNN) -- An Israeli airstrike hit a four-story residential building used as a shelter by Lebanese refugees in the southern Lebanese town of Qana Sunday morning, killing and wounding more than 65 people, a Lebanese emergency official said.

Kfar Qana again? History rarely repeats itself so precisely.

[Pekka]

Hmmm... our news say it was a three-story, and 50 dead (22 kids). I hope it's the same one, so there's not another one also.. but I tihnk this is the same one.

[MOBIUS]

Dozens killed in Lebanon air raid

More than 54 civilians, at least 34 of them children, have been killed in a town in south Lebanon in the deadliest Israeli strike of the conflict so far.

Lebanon described the bombing as a "heinous crime"

Nice to see Israel making good use of those bombs shipped in from the US via the UK poodle...

[GePap]

:sigh:

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I doubt the Olmert government will be able to quiet its critics and carry out the full ground invasion they are demanding (and which would be necessary to stop the rocket fire and do some longer term [not fatal of course] damage to Hizbullah's military capability after this mess...

[Lodi]

Was this already covered in this thread?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../28/wmid28.xml

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lodi
Was this already covered in this thread?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../28/wmid28.xml

NO, but the rhetoric matches the Israeli mindset that they can only reach peace by spreading fear of their might amongst the Arabs. Disproportionate responses have long been policy. Many Israelis (and their supporters) think that is how peace with Egypt and Jordan was reached.

Of course, if there were to be democratic elections tommorrow in both those countries were the populations were allowed to vote for whomever they wanted, the resulting governments would probably renounce their recognition of Israel and those peace treaties. Fear works on autocrats. It does not work as well on whole populations or ideologues.

It will be nice, the day something different is attempted. Not that that day is anywhere near.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by GePap


Tell that the the tens of thousands of tourists who had to be evacuated.

Ok, I will. Failed states tend to make for poor vacation spots for all but the most thrill seeking. I tend to look for more stability in the places I travel to.

[Guardian]

Well, what can I say... I have always strived to be a rational and well-balanced person. In the past, I have criticized both Israel in the Palestinians, I have never chosen one side to support and then criticized only the other side. I have not done so this time around either, but if I'm to say so myself, I have been almost surprisingly understanding towards Israel these past few weeks.

Alas, I have to say, this weekend tipped the scales as far as I'm concerned, and - as you may have suspected - not in Israel's favor.

To be blunt, I can no longer tell the difference between terrorists and those who hunt them.
The only difference I can see at this point is that one side is a state and uses tanks, bulldozers and F-16s while the other side consists of more loosely organized rebel groups with cheaper and cruder weaponry. That's all.

Why would I say this?
Two main reasons:

Reason 1: Sunday morning, after the Qana attack, Israeli spokesmen said that the civilian population had been warned several days ago about imminent attacks and advised to leave the area. By now, Israel was therefore "assuming that these villages were empty".

Riiiiiiight. Is Haifa empty now?
Actually, according to this logic, it seems pretty much all of northern Israel should be empty by now, and if it's not, then it's pretty much the people's own fault if they get killed or hurt by Hizbollah rockets. They have been warned…

Reason 2: Saturday night I saw a piece on the news about what's been going on in Gaza the past few days. Some people there have been trying to make themselves a livelyhood growing olives and oranges. This, of course, is totally unacceptable, so the IDF went in and bulldozed everything - on the pretext of creating a "security zone" along the border.

Well, call me an infidel, but I'm not buying the security argument. I saw what the area looked like after the tanks and the bulldozers pulled out and it wasn't exactly flat. There were plenty of big piles of dirt lying around - which people could hide behind. Where is the security in that? Yes, the top cover is gone and so if someone was to hide behind one of these dirt piles, then they can be seen from the air, but I am convinced that it would also be possible to monitor people going to and from the fruit orchards with very little extra effort. I don't believe for a second that this will make the area more secure. On the contrary, I'd say a lot of people will be more likely to support attacks against Israel now.

I know I would.

Once again, I see no real difference between the parties anymore.
They all seem determined to punish each other's civilian population for being on the "wrong" side.

[dannubis]

Kids...

[Guardian]

Originally posted by GePap


NO, but the rhetoric matches the Israeli mindset that they can only reach peace by spreading fear of their might amongst the Arabs.

Actually, the rhetoric erases the moral difference between Israel and their enemies.

In moral terms, there is no difference between saying that "anyone in southern Lebanon is a target" and saying "anyone in Israel is a target". The two sides are now two of a kind.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Guardian


Actually, the rhetoric erases the moral difference between Israel and their enemies.

In moral terms, there is no difference between saying that "anyone in southern Lebanon is a target" and saying "anyone in Israel is a target". The two sides are now two of a kind.

Of course there is a difference.

The difference being that Hezbullah is intentionally hitting plain civilian areas in hope to kill civilians. This is while it is capable of rather precisely targetting only Israeli military facilities and posts (as it did).

Israel on the other hand, is not so lucky when selecting its targets. Hezbullah posts, commands and warehouses are unmarked and usually intentionally hidden next to sensitive areas such as hospitals, schools and UN posts.

As such Israel is entitled to target said civilian areas since the existance of military positions there has anulled its status of 'civilian area'.

Hezbullah wants to hold the rope at both ends - have military positions and have them secure from Israeli fire, by placing them next to non-targets.

This strategy is illegal and should not be allowed to work.

I'm terribly sorry for all the innocent people who lost their lives. I hope Hezbullah will stop putting civilian areas in danger.

And no - them being the weaker force does not justify hiding behind hospitals and UN posts.

And no - there is no reason for a stronger force to "limit" itself. This would just prolong the battle. Wars require a victory. If you end a conflict in a stale-mate it is just waiting to erupt again.

[Sirotnikov]

On the issue of hitting UN posts or whatever Israel wasn't supposed to hit but hit on accident:

Israel has so far suffered a good number of casualties, including 3 apache helicopters lost to accidents and friendly fire. In another incident, a brigade commander himself directed artillery fire at an IDF outpost, and then sent apaches to make sure it was "clear".

Such is the nature of combat that you make decisions on little information, and sometimes even though some part of the army knows some important details - what counts is what the local commanding officer knew at the moment.

Compared to the sheer number of Israeli raids on Hezbullah targets located in civilian areas - I'd say its a miracle we've killed only 500 people (without knowing how many of them are Hezbullah militia).

[GhengisFarbâ„¢]

Originally posted by Guardian


Actually, the rhetoric erases the moral difference between Israel and their enemies.

In moral terms, there is no difference between saying that "anyone in southern Lebanon is a target" and saying "anyone in Israel is a target". The two sides are now two of a kind.

Hezbollah's aiming for the civilians. Israel's trying to avoid hitting the civilians. I'd say that's a big difference.

Course, I'm not saying either side has been all that successful, what with Hezbollah's crappy aim and hiding behind civilians and all.