Middle East Continued Again...

[dannubis]

well, i think it is safe to say that none of the 22 children the IDF killed yesterday were active hezbollah members.

so three cheers for the Israeli airforce for eliminating ONLY 22 children... they certainly did their best - almost on par with the reaction of the Israeli governement to the "incident", disgusting.

[Sirotnikov]

well, i think it is safe to say that none of the 22 children the IDF killed yesterday were active hezbollah members.

so three cheers for the Israeli airforce for eliminating ONLY 22 children... they certainly did their best - almost on par with the reaction of the Israeli governement to the "incident", disgusting.

I'm sure that its easy to criticise military blunders from a far away seat, where you aren't actually required to do anything or make any real-time judgements.

Israel has said it is sorry.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by dannubis
well, i think it is safe to say that none of the 22 children the IDF killed yesterday were active hezbollah members.

so three cheers for the Israeli airforce for eliminating ONLY 22 children... they certainly did their best - almost on par with the reaction of the Israeli governement to the "incident", disgusting.

Another point -

From what I gathered in news reports, it was close to a Hezbullah shooting post, and guerillas were recorded often taking refuge in that building. I don't have further information at this point(nor would I be in liberty do discuss it had I known something more).

Apparently Israel attacked, expecting the building to be mostly occupied by guerillas. Seems to be a tragic mistake.

However the choise was between hitting an enemy and having an unknow (at the time presumed low) number of casualties, and not hitting a dangerous and armed
enemy.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

First of all, Siro, it is good to see you!
I hope all is as well as it can be for you and your loved ones

Of course there is a difference.

The difference being that Hezbullah is intentionally hitting plain civilian areas in hope to kill civilians. This is while it is capable of rather precisely targetting only Israeli military facilities and posts (as it did).

Israel on the other hand, is not so lucky when selecting its targets. Hezbullah posts, commands and warehouses are unmarked and usually intentionally hidden next to sensitive areas such as hospitals, schools and UN posts.

Ah, yes, this is still true and it's basically why I have been so careful about criticizing Israel so far. I guess I got a little carried away - there is still a difference, but rethoric like that mentioned above makes it less clear...

As such Israel is entitled to target said civilian areas since the existance of military positions there has anulled its status of 'civilian area'.

Israel is entitled to target the military positions that are hidden in those civilian areas, not the areas as such. But I concede that it may oftentimes be impossible to go after these targets without hitting civilians and when your enemies keep attacking you from such positions, you can not always choose not to strike back.

Hezbullah wants to hold the rope at both ends - have military positions and have them secure from Israeli fire, by placing them next to non-targets.

This strategy is illegal and should not be allowed to work.

Agreed.

I'm terribly sorry for all the innocent people who lost their lives. I hope Hezbullah will stop putting civilian areas in danger.

You and me both.

And no - them being the weaker force does not justify hiding behind hospitals and UN posts.

Absolutely not.

And no - there is no reason for a stronger force to "limit" itself. This would just prolong the battle. Wars require a victory. If you end a conflict in a stale-mate it is just waiting to erupt again.

True, but if you end a conflict in such a manner that an awful lot of people feel that a great injustice has been done, you could end up with the same result.

[Sirotnikov]

Guardian, look its not as if I'm happy that we bombed that building.

I'm terribly sorry, and had we known in advance I'm sure that people would have acted against it.

I'm not defending this action because I like dead children. Rather because having been much closer to the decision taking process than you guys - I know how many unknown variables exist when you're pressured to make a decision to attack.

This goes from the single soldier to the chief of staff.

Intelligence is often false or incomplete - assessment is often wrong. But you have to make a choise.

Obviously I am aware that lots of decisions are taken more recklessly than others by some people. I'm sorry for that and I think it does us harm.

However, I can't judge everyone, nor should I. Currently we are at war, and our privelage to ponder really well about what we're doing is somewhat gone at the expense of the need for initiative.

Obviously that leads to mistakes...

[Ecthy]

Finally we have a man of sense among us... Guardian, tell them how this stuff works!

[Sirotnikov]

I also think that the reaction to Kfar-Qana is mostly lead by emotion - not logic.

True - we accidentally killed several dozen innocent people. But we accidentally killed much more before that. What suddenly makes people angry is the large amount in a small time frame.

Either you're always against hitting civilians no matter what the circumstances are (which I disagree with, but can understand the logic behind) or you agree to see that civilians can't always be avoided in a true military action - and then this incident, while very very despairing and sad, is just a bigger mistake than usually.

I never thought war was pretty and I'm sad we have to fight.

I also tend to agree that on the grand scale - setting lebanon back so much is hurting its freedom and somewhat playing into the hands of Iran and Syria.

However - it is in Israel's interest to make Hezbullah pay, and to do what ever is needed, to force the Lebanese army, and preferably a strong international force, into southern Lebanon.

The status quo was very bad for Israel and had to be changed.

I hope this war will even surprise us with an eventual stronger cease fire and some sort of diplomacy between Israel and Lebanon.

[Sirotnikov]

True, but if you end a conflict in such a manner that an awful lot of people feel that a great injustice has been done, you could end up with the same result.

agreed.

Israeli actions aren't the most well thought through

[Sirotnikov]

Btw, I'm resting at my relatives place after getting the cold in the secret military bunker

I've been following stuff here when I could, but I was barred to post from the location I was in

[Sirotnikov]

Btw, another point I saw mentioned that I'd like to address:

the absense of bomb shelters in residential areas of the arab Israeli population.

Bomb sheletrs or reinforced chambers inside appartments are rather new ideas and are provided either by the contractor or by the government.

Older houses (such as my own) do not have anything like that.

Poor or unregulated areas where construction is often illegal, and against government standarts and regulations, also suffer from an absense of sheltered places.

This is true for the arab population of Nazarath... as well as the orthodox jewish population of Nazarath.

The truth is that rich people in modern housing and in rich residential areas have shelters and poor people in slums or in poor local authorities don't them.

[lord of the mark]

1. Apparently dozens of rockets were fired from Kana, some from right near the building that collapsed.


2. According to Haaretz, theres some question about the timing, including an unexplained gap between the last Israeli strike, and the first reports of the building collapse. Not many details as yet.


3. Nonetheless I think the international community will impose a ceasefire soon. It may be done before Hezb is sufficiently weakened for the Leb army and international forces to be able to deal with it. In which case there will probably be another war involving Hezbollah and Israel in few years. Too bad.


4. QOTM and I attended a town hall meeting in support of Israel last week, and I attended a rally in DC the week before that. We aredonating to the emergency fund for Israel. Siro = I hope Israelis are aware of how this has mobilized diaspora Jewry.

[Sirotnikov]

I also heard the version about a disproportionate amount of time between the airstrike and the building's collapse.

I hope it is somehow investigated. If the lebanese decided to recklessly spend the night in a severly attacked building waiting to collapse on its inhabitants - then its their own fault.

I still haven't evidence to support this though.

[lord of the mark]

nm

[Sirotnikov]

Great

ROFL at this.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Compared to the sheer number of Israeli raids on Hezbullah targets located in civilian areas - I'd say its a miracle we've killed only 500 people (without knowing how many of them are Hezbullah militia).

Doesn't that argue for setting the bar a good bit higher before responding to obvious provocations?