Middle East Continued Again...

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Spiffor

If artillery fire is so precise, how come the UN has been hit 4 times?

Did I say that it was flawless ? Didn't I say "most" ? Each time a cannon is fired it changes it's behaviour at the next shot - moving the cannon a few centimeters can alter the target by meters.

[Pekka]

Spiffie, the reason I would say UN is important, I mean it is important for the EU. EU can have its own security circles but it's all talk, we have no power we can project anywhere outside our borders. So the UN is the only way we can keep ourselves in the tables that matters, so we need to make it count.

Our only way of keep being important is if we are allied with the US and through the UN keep the influence. China will be a superpower soon, you think they care about the UN? They don't have to care about it. We will become an obsolete thing between the US and China, and our importance will be greatly diminished, we need to keep the money coming in here by keeping the influence and say in things. The greatness in the world theater of the EU is not as big as EU thinks. It's mostly some hegemony inside EU. Reality will be different soon, unless we can keep the UN as something important.

In short, we are not going to be important soon enough, and if we let things slide when it comes to UN, we will have no real say anymore. You think Russia, China and US gives a damn when we lose even more leverage? US might, and that's only if we keep the relations and create more hustle with them. Russia is more interested in other things and who knows if the school of Eurasia will gain more popularity in its future strategy. We will become a party planet for the East and the West.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Did I say that it was flawless ? Didn't I say "most" ? Each time a cannon is fired it changes it's behaviour at the next shot - moving the cannon a few centimeters can alter the target by meters.

So, if I understand well, you think the cannons fired on a target close to the UN post, and that 20% of those shots hit the UN because of bad luck.

Now, please explain me why a precision missile destroyed the bunker in which the UN soldiers hid.

[Pekka]

Also, if the firing is getting too close, which it did because they called them up several times, maybe it's a sign of.. well.. not firing so close or taking those targets down after the evacuation has been completed?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Pekka
Kuci, if that is the level of incompetence (I mean they did call them and protest the action several times), maybe some people need to go and someone needs to take over?

If that is the level of incompetence, it makes you wonder about the whole operation...

This particular incident is under the microscope because the UN were hit - what about all the civilian deaths?

Basically either the IDF struck the UN post on purpose - or the leadership of the IDF is so incompetent it is literally a 'war crime' sending them into battle...

Neither prospect is acceptable.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
Spiffie, the reason I would say UN is important, I mean it is important for the EU. EU can have its own security circles but it's all talk, we have no power we can project anywhere outside our borders. So the UN is the only way we can keep ourselves in the tables that matters, so we need to make it count.

I agree. But it's not only a power thing. The UN is the only place, flawed as it may be, that offers a way to look at diplomacy that isn't "might makes right".

Traditionally, the world order has been characterized by anarchy, by the fact that the strongest did whatever it wanted. After WW1 and WW2, two of the greatest carnages known to mankind, the UN was founded as a hope that international relations could be something else than the right of the strongest.

This idea has been spat on during the cold war. But there was hope after the end of the cold war, that international relations might become more orderly and less violent. However, the UN has managed to be made even more irrelevant than during the cold war recently.

I don't think that it is utopia to have a non-anarchic international system. We do manage to have non-anarchic societies, and even non-anarchic regional blocs. However, a non-anarchic international system won't just miraculously happen. It's an idea that has to be defended. It's an idea that requires effort. And as of today, the UN is the only place where we can hope to achieve that.

[Spiffor]

Pekka: I'd add that the UN can do nothing if it is toothless. Just like cops can do nothing if they are just allowed to make stern comments against outlaws.
If the UN is to have any efficiency, it needs to have a clear mandate, that allows it to actually punish those who disregard the terms of the mission. It is also to have a military capability, and a better organization (the UN military organization is horrid).

But of course, such a UN would mean that even "our boys" (whoever they may be) could get punished for misbehaviour, so some countries will always block it from happening

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Your cause would be better served if you weren't so inflammatory. I don't think you'll ever prompt Sloww to think about his stance by constantly insulting him.

I'm not trying to get him to change his stance.

Sloww has proved he is too stupid to chance his stance - he couldn't change his stance if someone drew him a diagram!

Most Israeli-supporters here are eager to whitewash anything Israel does (or to raise only a lip-service outrage when Israel goes incredibly over the line).

Exactly! That is because they are morons who put their heads in the sand - worse still they actually condone these barbaric actions... I mean you have to be pretty retarded to actually believe Israel is handling this situation properly.

But that's not because they're criminals. That's because their belief of Israel as the "good guys" blind them into giving Israel the benefit of the doubt in all but the most extreme circumstances.

And this is not 'the most extreme of circumstances'?

If they were suddenly prompted into thinking of the whole issue without first assuming that Israel is the good guys, without automatically being lenient on Israel's actions, then their opinions would be very different.

Yes. For a start they would be less retarded.

Remember what happened during the Abu Ghraib scandal. Many of our war-supporters changed their minds, as they saw that the US might possibly not be the "good guys" in Iraq. It had an especially strong effect on Ted, who became very critical towards the US' policies, whereas he was nearly jingoist before.

Indeed. But Ted was one of the cleverer ones and was willing to suck up his pride.

This kind of opinion-shifting cannot occur when people get constantly insulted by the other side.

Actually it can. Unless you're stupid that is. If you suddenly realise you're wrong, do you continue being wrong because you don't want to admit it in front of your 'enemy'? If you do continue, they'll know you're wrong anyway and can then be justified in their insults - because you're clearly being an idiot!

Problem with people here is that they let their petty emotions cloud their judgement...

Especially when these insults are so remote from reality that they make the insulter look like a frothing-at-the-mouth troll

Excellent use of the smilie there...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
And this is not 'the most extreme of circumstances'?

Depends for whom. The current situation might be enough for our more open-minded posters to understand that one shouldn't automatically assume that Israel are the good guys.

For our most adamant posters, It'd take a full-fledged genocide. With some aggravating circumstances.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Is it a possibility that there really was just a big intel ****up? Like the Chinese embassy bombing?

That wasn't a **** up. That was deliberate. Both the U.S. and China officially pretended it was an accident, because China was rebroadcasting Yugoslav military radio and neither country wanted to have to deal with the ****storm that would have occured if either country admitted what it had done. It was, however, a fairly widespread story in Europe.

The UN building was well marked and hadn't moved for thirty years. The Israelis knew what it was. Even assuming they hit it by accident, one must then ask, why did they then continue to bomb and shell a building with a big blue flag and people with white helmets. It was as much an accident as the attack on the Liberty was, which is to say, not at all.

[notyoueither]

A retired Canadian officer was interviewed on radio today. He served in the UNIFIL force. He's still plugged in with DND and such.

He said he figures Hezb had rockets on top of the UN position. They did it all the time (put things right next to UN positions).

I'm withholding judgement.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Spiffor
- If the post was NOT targetted, then it means that 21 attacks (in that scenario, random attacks) occured in that tiny place alone, 16 random attacks on a 100m radius.
Such scenario would mean that Israel unleashes a barrage of blind artillery fire on southern Lebanon such that a tiny piece of land gets 16 hits in one day.
It would also mean that precision missiles aren't precision, and hit whatever pleases their AI.
We condemn Hezbollah for firing rockets blindly against Israel. But if Israel hadn't been targetting the UN then it would mean it's been firing blind rockets too. And many, many more than Hezbollah could do.

Or they are firing on rocket batteries positioned near the UN post.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

Exactly! That is because they are morons who put their heads in the sand - worse still they actually condone these barbaric actions...

Oh, so basically, "Anyone who disagrees with me is either a moron or a barbarian", huh?

Well, that's a nice attitude...

I wonder... exactly how far is this from "Anyone who disagrees with me is an enemy whom I can take a shot at" ?

No wonder we have wars in the world...

[notyoueither]

It's not an attitude, it's the official policy of Mobystan.

[dannubis]

Israel lies in Mobystan ???