Middle East Continued Again...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Is UR's habbit of deflecting criticism of whatever group he supports by trying to get people to start talking about America (or some subgroup of America) no matter how tangentialy it maybe related to the topic at hand a common disease of communists?

I was trying to make a snide comment about you without drawing Ming's ire. I had thought you would have been smart enough to pick that up. I gues I over estimate your intelligence.

[Kuciwalker]

Face it, che: you're a tool, Hezbollah's tool.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Face it, che: you're a tool, Hezbollah's tool.

QFSig

[Kuciwalker]

Case in point: "Israel bombed the UN today."

[chequita guevara]

If the PolyCons are anything to go by, the life an of Arab civilian is worth less than a tenth of an Israeli. It's easy to say that you don't care.

[DinoDoc]

As hard as it maybe for you to believe, I'm not the topic of the conversation nor do I seek to make myself one.

[GePap]

Since when is Israel's behavior to be measured in relations to Hizbullah, as opposed, say, other Western states? I thought the idea here was that "israel shares our values". If so, then their behavior should be cmpared to our values.

As I said before, Israel has always had a policy of massively disproportionate responses. They think the only way the can "live in peace" is to make its neighbors afraid of them and their brute force.

Too bad fear leads only to temporary peace, and to hate.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If the PolyCons are anything to go by, the life an of Arab civilian is worth less than a tenth of an Israeli. It's easy to say that you don't care.

No response to my link? Pulling a UR?

[Ramo]

There isnt going to peace until Hezb no longer has military control of the South.

What it takes for Leb to take control of the South, will depend on A. How strong Hezbollah is militarily B. How much support Leb gets and C. How much support Hezb gets.

In the last 6 years Hezb has been strong and gotten stronger, has gotten support from Syria and Iran, and no one has offered real material support to the Leb govt (beyond some training of the army) to oppose Hezb.

Hezb is now being materially weakened. The next steps are to prevent new support from reaching them, and to create an international force to assist the Lebs in taking control of South Lebanon.

But you must realize that something else is happening besides the weakening of the Hezbollah militia relative to the Lebanese army.

And that would be the assaults on Lebanon's infrastructure clearly controlled by Beirut, attacks on areas that are clearly Christian or Sunni, and the indiscriminate bombing of Shia civilian areas - all to terrorize the Lebanese population into following Olmert's designs with respect to the South (starting a long bloodbath).

According to retired Israeli army Col. Gal Luft, the goal of the campaign is to "create a rift between the Lebanese population and Hezbollah supporters." The message to Lebanon's elite, he said, is this: "If you want your air conditioning to work and if you want to be able to fly to Paris for shopping, you must pull your head out of the sand and take action toward shutting down Hezbollah-land."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/24/AR2006072400807.html

[Eli]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
If the PolyCons are anything to go by, the life an of Arab civilian is worth less than a tenth of an Israeli. It's easy to say that you don't care.

If the Arabs themselves are anything to go by, looking on the prisoner-exchanges throughout Israeli history, the life of an Arab is worth even less than a hundredth of an Israeli.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by GePap
Since when is Israel's behavior to be measured in relations to Hizbullah, as opposed, say, other Western states? I thought the idea here was that "israel shares our values". If so, then their behavior should be cmpared to our values.

As I said before, Israel has always had a policy of massively disproportionate responses. They think the only way the can "live in peace" is to make its neighbors afraid of them and their brute force.

Too bad fear leads only to temporary peace, and to hate.

Spot on

[MOBIUS]

Sure enough I speak of Israelis murdering civilians in a UN compound and hours later they kill four UN observers...

Apparently trying to hit the observation post repeatedly with artillery fire and then actually destroying the bunker with a direct hit from an F-16 was a 'mistake'...

Repeatedly targeting the Indian UN rescuers with artillery was also a 'mistake'.

You know, these guys have been here since 1978 (UN has been ever present since 1948, what good that's done), they wear blue helmets, drive around in big white armoured vehicles with 'UN' written on them in big letters, their observation posts have been in place for years and fly big blue UN flags...

Since fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants began two weeks ago, there had been several dozen incidents of firing close to UN peacekeepers and observers, including direct hits on nine positions, some of them repeatedly, a UN official said.

As a result of these attacks, 12 UN personnel have been killed or injured, the official said.

Last night's bomb made a direct hit on the building and shelter of the observer post in the town of Khiam, near the eastern end of the border with Israel, said Milos Struger, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon known as Unifil.

Four unarmed military observers were in a bunker and the bunker collapsed as a result of the bombing, the UN official said.

Rescue workers were trying to clear the rubble, but Israeli firing " continued even during the rescue operation", Struger said.

So is this just another case of Israel pulling a USS Liberty or are they trying to pull a 'Zarqawi' (That well known terrorist) and bomb the UN out of south Lebanon, so that they can get on with their warcrimes in relative peace knowing that the only people likely watching will be their complicitous bedfellows, the US...

Israel is a terrorist state, born out of terrorism, with terrorist leaders and using every dirty trick in the book ever since...

[MOBIUS]

The cracks are opening

Israel can gain nothing more from this war than a bloody reputation. It is the right time to stop

This war must be stopped immediately. From the start it was unnecessary, even if its excuse was justified. Every day raises its price, taking a toll in blood that gives Israel nothing in return. This is a good time to stop because both sides can claim they won: Israel harmed Hizbullah and Hizbullah harmed Israel. History shows that no situation is better for reaching an arrangement.
Israel went into the campaign on justified grounds and foul means. It claims it has declared war on Hizbullah but, in practice, it is destroying Lebanon. It has got most of what it could have out of this war. The aerial "target bank" has mostly been covered. The airforce could continue to sow destruction in the residential neighbourhoods and empty offices, dropping bombs on real or imagined bunkers, and kill innocent Lebanese, but nothing good will come of it.

Those who want to restore Israel's deterrent capabilities have succeeded. Hizbullah and the rest of its enemies now know that Israel reacts with enormous force to any provocation. An international agreement could be achieved now, and it won't be possible to achieve a better deal in the future.
Israel's other goals - returning the captured soldiers and the elimination of Hizbullah leader Hassan Nasrallah - will be more difficult to achieve if the war goes on for weeks and months. The Israeli Defence Force is asking for "two more weeks"; in two weeks it will ask for "another two weeks". A decisive victory is not in the offing.

On the other hand, the price is skyrocketing. Every day increases international criticism of Israel - not only in the streets of the Arab world, but also in the west. Not only hundreds of thousands of Lebanese but tens of thousands of westerners fleeing from Lebanon are contributing to the depiction of Israel as a violent, crude and destructive state.

The fact that George Bush and Tony Blair are cheering Israel might be consolation for Ehud Olmert and the media in Israel, but it is not enough to persuade millions of TV viewers who see the destruction and devastation, most of which are not shown in Israel. The world sees entire neighbourhoods destroyed, thousands of refugees fleeing in panic, and hundreds of civilians dead and wounded, including many children. A lethal summer will exact a much greater price. Slowly, the cracks will open and Israel's citizens will begin to ask why we are dying and what we are killing for.

We've been here before, more than once. Wars began with national approval and ended with a great crisis. When it becomes apparent that the airforce is not enough, the ground invasion will intensify. The cliche about the Lebanese quagmire will be revalidated, and when soldiers are killed, the protests will rise and divide society.

Now Israel is hoping for the elimination of Nasrallah. It is worth reminding ourselves of the dozens of people Israel assassinated in Lebanon and the territories, from Sheikh Abbas Musawi to Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, each replaced by someone new - usually more talented and dangerous than the predecessor. The goals of war should not be dictated by dark impulses, even if they come in response to the wishes and demands of the mob. The other desired goal, the return of the prisoners, will only be achieved through negotiations. Israel could have done that before the war.

Continuing the war guarantees a heavy price without any guarantee of reward. Israel must cease and desist. The president of the US can push us to continue the war, the prime minister of Britain can cheer us, but in Israel and Lebanon the blood is being spilt, the horror is intensifying, the price is rising, and it is all for naught.

· Gideon Levy is a columnist for the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz; this is an edited version of his latest article www.haaretz.com.

Even the Israelis are starting to see sense, and this was written a couple of days ago!

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
their complicitous bedfellows, the US...

Before the truly moronic apologists on this board start having a go...

This is the US that has given Israel a green light to murder innocent civilians and destroy an entire nation, in order to go after its enemy - and still supports them inspite of these crimes...

This is the US whose secretary of state took two weeks to visit Lebanon and Israel, before calling for an 'urgent' end to hostilities...

This is the US who supports the Israeli war machine to the tune of billions of $ every year...

This is the US who even now is resupplying the IDF with more powerful bombs, so that it can keep up its murderous assault...

This is the US who would rather look the other way when 207 of its sailors are killed and wounded in a repeated and deliberate air and naval attack by Israeli forces...

And that's just stuff off the top of my head, so yeah when they do nothing about their own men being killed and covering it up, yeah they're complicitous bedfellows - and that is putting it in the mildest terms possible!

Which just goes to show, if Israel is prepared to viciously strike at its ally - what depths is it really capable of!!?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


No response to my link? Pulling a UR?

What link? Also, I went to bed.