"what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop..."

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Rice had a press confrence on Friday where she said they wanted Syria to stop supplying weapons to Hezbollah before they'd agree to any direct talks. It's become a matter of principle like when the UK refused to speak to the IRA until they renounced violence.

Edit: Ok, Rice said "Syria knows what it needs to do" if they want direct talks. The newsancher then went on to explain that means the US wants Syria to stop supplying weapons to Hezbollah.

By that, Syria would admit that it does it. It also would loose face and support of Hizb Allah and all the Arab world, getting nothing in return but "talks", which would probably be just Americans stating Israeli demands and threatening Syria is it doesn't comply with them

[Edan]

Originally posted by Heresson
Syria claims it is ready for a dialogue with USA, but America is not only not trying to engage in it, but is preventing others from doing so.

As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice heads to Israel on Sunday, Bush administration officials say they recognize Syria is central to any plans to resolve the crisis in the Middle East, and they are seeking ways to peel Syria away from its alliance of convenience with Iran.

U.S. Plan Seeks to Wedge Syria From Iran

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MOBIUS
At least two children in Nazareth, O ignorant one. Making Arab Israeli civilian casualties almost on a par with Jewish Israeli ones, as a proportion of the pop...

At least two... That's a precise number, and you call me ignorant? And doing a statistical comparison of "random" casualties from virtually unaimable rockets to "prove" your pseudopoint. Priceless.

And I doubt the Israelis would be using German, that would be more your province as we'd established earlier...

Whooosh, that went over your head like a Katyusha.

Ahhh, so it is the civilians' fault?

Nice spin. Has nothing to do with the fact that it's Hisbullah's fault, but the civilian populace know they're in a potential war zone, that became an active war zone due to Hisbullah's actions.

Those poor civilians, the majority of whom probably can't even afford to move in the first place

Yes, the cost of suburban living is so high, that it's a bargain to live among terrorists close to the border of their one target.

- MtG showing his willful ignorance and disregard for the plight of the innocents...

As opposed to you trolling and jerking off over it.

Kids being bombed swimming in an irrigation ditch, ambulances being bombed, etc etc...

Only person here avoiding talking about the real issues of unnecessary civilian deaths is you...

Yes, the Israelis should just do nothing and take whatever Hisbullah decides to serve out. Or better yet, they should ask Hisbullah nicely what they want.

You're the one happy to defend over 300 civilian deaths (1/3 children) without any proven Hezb casualties.

Defend it? No. Hisbullah are gutless bastards. Understand that it is likely inevitable, given the situation and history? Yep, you got me there. And "no proven Hisbullah casualties." That's rich - like they're going to identify their dead and talk about how heavily their enemy is hitting them?

I just remembered the Nazis sometimes employing similar tactics against civilian pops whenever an attack occurred against them... Shall I just call you MtG the Baby-Killer?

How about if I call you Moby the c.......... So many things come to mind?

No, only a Nazi like you would think such things about the Jews. See you can't help it...

Apparently, direct parody of your own views sails over your head, too.

You really are a simple fool if you believe that clap-trap...

So what's the alternative, diphead - all you do is make excuses for how the Lebanese government (of which Hisbullah is a substantial portion) can't control its own territory. Well, someone will, like it or not.

By all means strike at hezb targets, but do so without killing 300+ civilians (or hitting UN positions!), or destroying the infrastructure of a country! How can the civilians run away from the fighting properly if you blow up all the bridges?

Unfortunately, Hisbullah forgot to put up big target signs in Hebrew which say "fixed, immobile Hisbullah target here." They also seem to have failed to site their assets away from civilians, instead of right in the midst of them. Oh, and last I heard, they use bridges too.

Then you are a moron because it is staring you in the face. But then making the idiotic 'Mobystan' comment reveals your total ignorance of the facts considering all of the 'stans' are located geographically far away from Israel/Lebanon (or even Iraq) and are pretty much all allies of the US - so way to look like a total tw@t MtG...

Mobystan is a state of mind. Or mindlessness, as the case may be.

How about 'Mobyraniastine'. I could live with that even though it would be totally wrong, just like you...

How about we chip in and buy you a one way ticket.

Are you sure that salmon is supposed to be blackened, or did you fall asleep on the job and burn it?

Oh yuk yuk hardy-har-har, dat wuz a reel gud wun.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Heresson
By that, Syria would admit that it does it. It also would loose face and support of Hizb Allah and all the Arab world, getting nothing in return but "talks", which would probably be just Americans stating Israeli demands and threatening Syria is it doesn't comply with them

Syria knew what it was getting into when it supported Hezballah. I have the least sympathy for Syria's and Iran's situation in this whole affair.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by DanS


Syria knew what it was getting into when it supported Hezballah. I have the least sympathy for Syria's and Iran's situation in this whole affair.

But why was Syria supporting Hizb Allah, and Hizb Allah seeked that help?
Because Israel is occupying syrian, lebaneese and palestinian territories. They knew what they were doing moving to ME and taking someone's lands

[DanS]

Under the current international order, Hizballah is not afforded the legitimacy of a state. Hizballah can't be right, no matter the cause, and needs to be liquidated, given a legitimate Lebanese state. You must realize this.

Syria and Iran knew the rules of the game going in.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Heresson
But why was Syria supporting Hizb Allah,

Because they are pissed they were expelled from Lebanon and find it convenient to have a proxy in the area undermining the legitimacy and sovereignty of the elected, democratic government.

[Heresson]

the rules are established by America, which is the closest ally of Israel and its faithful supporter.

[DanS]

The rules may have been established by the US (and others), but I think they are well recognized around the world. That's why there's very little sympathy for Hizballah, Syria, and Iran in this whole affair outside the middle east, even though Israel has gone a little overboard in its response.

[chequita guevara]

A little?

[DanS]

I consider it only a little. This was a clear cause for war.

[Heresson]

Isn't occupation of part of lebaneese territory a clear cause for Hizb Allah's (notabene irresponsible) behaviour?

[DanS]

No. That's part of the Lebanese gov't's portfolio.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
At least two... That's a precise number, and you call me ignorant? And doing a statistical comparison of "random" casualties from virtually unaimable rockets to "prove" your pseudopoint. Priceless.

Way to cherrypick your answers - anything too difficult for you, you paper over and pretend it doesn't exist...

Care to address this point properly again...

I like the irony whereby Israel's precision strikes have killed 20 times as many Lebanese civilians (including about 100 children) than Hezbollah's random unguided missiles have killed Israeli citizens...

So far hezb has a >50% military kills to civ kills compared to Israel's so-called precision strikes.

Indeed Israel has killed more children than hezb has killed Israelis! Who are the terrorists now, eh?

"At least 381 people have been killed in Lebanon, including 20 soldiers and 11 Hezbollah fighters, according to security officials. Hundreds of thousands of Lebanese have fled their homes.

Israel's death toll stands at 37, with 17 people killed by Hezbollah rockets and 20 soldiers killed in the fighting. Sixty-eight soldiers have been wounded, and 255 civilians injured by rocket fire, officials said."

Wow, officially the Israelis have killed more Lebanese soldiers than hezb fighters...

Before you get a little hard on about believing the hezb casualties etc, even I reckon more hezb have died - say 12 or 13 instead?

Whooosh, that went over your head like a Katyusha.

Actually I was merely reflecting your obvious comment back, which makes mine a far more satisfying whoosh!

Nice spin. Has nothing to do with the fact that it's Hisbullah's fault, but the civilian populace know they're in a potential war zone, that became an active war zone due to Hisbullah's actions.

You mean they should try and escape the fighting?

"Eighteen Lebanese fleeing a village are killed when their vehicles are struck with missiles on the road to the southern city of Tyre."

Not to mention all those bridges the Israelis so helpfully destroyed on the first night...

So either way if you're a civilian you get killed, way to be the apologist MtG - I bet the ones that tried to get away it was their fault as well because they weren't driving fast enough and couldn't fly over destroyed bridges...

Yes, the cost of suburban living is so high, that it's a bargain to live among terrorists close to the border of their one target.

You really are a **** aren't you?

I'd love to see you over there as a poor leb peasant trying to keep your family safe and see what you would do...

That comment is so wrong on so many levels I shall just let it hold forth as a beacon to the shining example of your utter crass ignorance of the subject at hand...

As opposed to you trolling and jerking off over it.

Fine, call it a troll if you wish - only person round here advocating the callous destruction of the lives of innocent civilians is you. MtG champion of the innocent civilian!

Yes, the Israelis should just do nothing and take whatever Hisbullah decides to serve out. Or better yet, they should ask Hisbullah nicely what they want.

There you go again...

Is there no depth to your ignorance? Hezb and their masters need to be dealt with, but initially there seems little point doing it at the barrel of a gun... It amazes me that you simply have no grasp or imagination about how things *could* be solved.

Though the question is whether the powers that be want to solve it...

Defend it? No. Hisbullah are gutless bastards. Understand that it is likely inevitable, given the situation and history? Yep, you got me there. And "no proven Hisbullah casualties." That's rich - like they're going to identify their dead and talk about how heavily their enemy is hitting them?

Gutless no. That is just your limited intellectual capability being exposed again thinking that. They are playing a cold and calculating game and as far as I can tell they've suckered Israel straight into their trap.

Apparently, direct parody of your own views sails over your head, too.

Please refer above...

So what's the alternative, diphead - all you do is make excuses for how the Lebanese government (of which Hisbullah is a substantial portion) can't control its own territory. Well, someone will, like it or not.

Obviously you don't know because your typically neanderthal response is brutish, indisciminate destruction!

Check out my response in the other Leb thread...

Unfortunately, Hisbullah forgot to put up big target signs in Hebrew which say "fixed, immobile Hisbullah target here." They also seem to have failed to site their assets away from civilians, instead of right in the midst of them. Oh, and last I heard, they use bridges too.

Indeed. Which just goes to show how crap the Israeli 'targeting' is that it kills so many civs as collateral damage...

Israel is merely playing into hezb hands by killing civs.

What about Israeli assets in Israeli, I bet many of them are in the midst of Israeli civilian towns etc...

Yes, they do use bridges - but so do the civilians you want to run away from the fighting, you absurd little man!

Mobystan is a state of mind. Or mindlessness, as the case may be.

Indeed, it is a state of your 'mind'. An insight into a woefully ignorant lack of imagination which I have already ridiculed. MtG the ME expert!

I await your next ignorant attempts at dodging the real issues and only tackling the ones you feel you might know the answers to...

[MOBIUS]

Blasted by a missile on the road to safety

Hey MtG, just read this - hot off the press!

Hey everyone, this is how MtG thinks civilians should be treated in a conflict!

Blasted by a missile on the road to safety

Family ordered to flee were targeted because they were driving minivan

Suzanne Goldenberg in Kafra, Lebanon
Monday July 24, 2006
The Guardian

The ambulanceman gave Ali the job of keeping his mother alive. The 12-year-old did what he could. "Mama, mama, don't go to sleep," he sobbed, gently patting her face beneath her chin. Behind her black veil, her eyelids were slowly sinking. "I'm going to die," she sighed. "Don't say that, mama," Ali begged, and then slid to the ground in tears.
On the pavement around mother and son were the other members of the Sha'ita family, their faces spattered with each other's blood. All were in varying shades of shock and injury. A tourniquet was tied on Ali's mother's arm. A few metres away, his aunt lay motionless, the white T-shirt beneath her abaya stained red. Two sisters hugged each other and wept, oblivious to the medics tending their wounds. "Let them take me, let them take me," one screamed.

The ambulanceman gave Ali the job of keeping his mother alive. The 12-year-old did what he could. "Mama, mama, don't go to sleep," he sobbed, gently patting her face beneath her chin. Behind her black veil, her eyelids were slowly sinking. "I'm going to die," she sighed. "Don't say that, mama," Ali begged, and then slid to the ground in tears.
On the pavement around mother and son were the other members of the Sha'ita family, their faces spattered with each other's blood. All were in varying shades of shock and injury. A tourniquet was tied on Ali's mother's arm. A few metres away, his aunt lay motionless, the white T-shirt beneath her abaya stained red. Two sisters hugged each other and wept, oblivious to the medics tending their wounds. "Let them take me, let them take me," one screamed.

Their mother was placed on a stretcher, and lifted into the ambulance. "God is with you, mama," Ali said. She reached up with her good arm to caress his face.
The Sha'itas had thought they were on the road to safety when they set out yesterday, leaving behind a village which because of an accident of geography - it is five miles from the Israeli border - had seemed to make their home a killing ground. They had been ordered to evacuate by the Israelis.

But they were a little too slow and became separated from the other vehicles fleeing the Israeli air offensive in south Lebanon. Minutes before the Guardian's car arrived, trailing a Red Cross ambulance on its way to other civilian wounded in another town, an Israeli missile pierced the roof of the Sha'itas' white van. Three passengers sitting in the third row were killed instantly, including Ali's grandmother. Sixteen other passengers were wounded. In recent days, families like the Sha'itas are bearing the brunt of Israel's air campaign and its efforts to rid the area of civilians before ground operations. A day after Israel's deadline for people to leave their homes and flee north of the Litani river, roads which in ordinary times wind lazily through tobacco fields and banana groves have been turned into highways of death.

Plumes of smoke rise in the distance, and the road in front of us offers up signs of closer peril: car wrecks, still smoking after Israeli strikes, and abandoned vehicles with shattered rear windows. Some were direct hits by Israeli aircraft. Others were drivers who had lost control. Overhead is the menacing roar of Israeli warplanes and the buzz of drones tracking every movement.

With bridges on the main coastal roads severed by Israeli air strikes, and secondary mountain routes scarred by craters, the means of escape for Lebanese trying to follow Israel's orders are limited. "All the smaller roads leading to the coastal roads are destroyed," said a spokesman for the UN in the border town of Naqoura. "In some areas you have people pushing cars by hand through obstacles made by a rocket or a bomb." By yesterday afternoon, for many villagers, there was truly no way out.

Death came crashing into the Sha'ita family soon after 10am, in the form of an Israeli anti-tank missile, seemingly fired from an Israeli helicopter high overhead, in Kafra, about nine miles from their home. Those passengers who were not killed or injured by shards of burning metal were hurt when the van plunged into the side of a hill.

In their village of et-Tiri, the Sha'itas were an extended clan of 54 people. Between them they had three cars. When the Israeli evacuation order came, in leaflets shot out of aircraft, the family planned at first to stay. "We were at home living our lives," said Musbah Sha'ita, Ali's uncle.

By 7pm on Saturday night, the deadline set by Israel for people in about a dozen villages in south Lebanon to leave, the Sha'itas were close to panic. "Whoever could run was running," said Mr Sha'ita. "I pushed them to go."

One of their fleeing neighbours said he would send transport for them, and the next morning all 54 of the Sha'itas set out in a convoy of three white minivans. That choice of transport proved a fatal mistake.

In their leaflet campaign, the Israelis have warned repeatedly they would consider minivans, trucks and motorcyles as targets. "The minivans are a target for Israel because they can take Katyusha rockets for Hizbullah, so they do not contemplate too long," the UN official said. "They just shoot it."

Dozens of others have met a similar fate as Israeli F-16 jet fighters and attack helicopters intensify a campaign meant to cut off the supply of Hizbullah rockets, and the movement of its fighters.

But Israel's offensive is being felt across a much wider swath of south Lebanon. The Lebanese Red Cross in Tyre said 10 cars carrying civilians and three or four motorcycles had been hit by Israeli missiles yesterday. Red Cross ambulances were no safer; a spokesman said an ambulance had narrowly escaped a missile near the village of el-Qlaile, south of the city. A number of the dead, including the three members of the Sha'ita family, remained trapped in their cars because it was too dangerous to retrieve their bodies.

In Tyre, south Lebanon's main town and a stopping point on the flight to the north, the hospital received a steady flow of injured. By late afternoon there were three dead and 41 injured, two critically."They are bombing them all in their cars," said Ahmed Mrowe, the director of Jabal al-Amal hospital.

Those who choose not to flee - the UN estimates that 35%-40% of villagers are too poor or too frail to make the journey - are being left stranded.

That was the predicament facing the Sha'itas when Musbah Sha'ita urged them to flee. In a car on the way to the hospital, his ear was welded to his phone, trying to find out where his wounded relatives were, and he could not stop blaming himself.

"We put a white flag. We were doing what Israel told us to do," he says. "What more do they want of us?"

Obviously they deserved to die by not obeying Israeli orders about travelling in white vans and they left late too - definitely their fault, just as MtG says...