Middle East thread continued

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Proteus_MST
As someone mentioned, perhaps handing over the Sheeba farms would loose Hizbollah one of the justifications it has in the eyes of many lebanese citizens.

Agreeing to any number of Hezb demands might theoretically weaken their support, as would Israel disbanding itself, but such concessions would only be considered a sign of weakness, particularly such claims that are tenuous and contested.

[SlowwHand]

Never negotiate with terrorists.

A) It shows weakness
B) From now on they'll use that tactic, as precedent has been set
C) Why the Hell would you believe them anyway?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
This is insanity, and the insane are not in Tel Aviv.

Yes, because it's perfectly sane to murder 300 civilians to get back two soldiers

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Oerdin


The myth that Shebaa Farms was ever part of Lebanon was created by Syria and Hezbollah in 2000 in order to justify the continuing existence of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. The real facts are the historical maps published by both the Syrian and Lebanonese governments prior to the current conflict. All of those maps agree that Shebaa Farms is not in Lebanon.

And as I said, if the Syrians (who you seem to agree ARE or WERE the rightful owners) now say the farms are Lebanese, then they still aren't Israeli property or territory, are they ?

Never negotiate with terrorists.

Slowwhand


No, just employ them as 'freedom fighters' in Nicaragua or Afghanistan. Or prevent their extradition to the United Kingdom on the grounds that Irish-American voters might get upset, boo hoo.

The CIA's support of the Afghani Mujahadeen between 1979 and 1989 resulted in a huge wave of well-armed and trained Muslim extremists bent on venting their political and ideological rage against the U.S. At the same time, the overflow from the Afghani operation resulted in one of the largest pools of potential recruits for covert operations.

One of the main operatives the CIA had utilized in its war against the Soviets was Sheik Abdel Omar Rahman. The CIA utilized Rahman because of his influence over the Mujahadeen, then brought him into the U.S. on a CIA-sponsored visa. While the Sheik was eventually convicted for conspiracy to bomb targets in the U.S., prosecutors encountered resistance in pursuing him and other World Trade Center bombing suspects because of their ties to the Mujahadeen, and their ties to U.S. intelligence.

As Jack Blum, investigator for the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee, put it: "One of the big problems here is that many suspects in the World Trade Center bombing were associated with the Mujahadeen. And there are components of our government that are absolutely disinterested in following that path because it leads back to people we supported in the Afghan war."

http://www.constitution.org/ocbpt/ocbpt_11.htm

You say freedom fighter, they say Islamist terrorist:

"There's much more to do. Throughout the world the Soviet Union and its agents, client states, and satellites are on the defensive-on the moral defensive, the intellectual defensive, and the political and economic defensive. Freedom movements arise and assert themselves. They're doing so on almost every continent populated by man-in the hills of Afghanistan, in Angola, in Kampuchea, in Central America. In making mention of freedom fighters, all of us are privileged to have in our midst tonight one of the brave commanders who lead the Afghan freedom fighters-Abdul Haq. Abdul Haq, we are with you."

Ronald Reagan, "Creators of the Future" speech, March 8, 1985


Let freedom reign:

Thatcher to meet Afghan guerrilla / British Premier to hold talks with Abdul Haq

By JONATHAN STEELE


The Prime Minister is to see an Afghan rebel leader whose group takes credit for planting a bomb at Kabul airport which killed a dozen civilians. Abdul Haq, the field commander in the Kabul region for one of the most active guerrilla groups, is in Britain as a guest of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Although Afghan resistance leaders have previously visited Britain at the Government's expense, this is the first time a battlefield commander has been invited.

Mr Haq, who is in his 20s, confirmed yesterday that he ordered the planting of a bomb at Kabul airport in September, 1984, in which at least 28 people are reported to have died.

Many of them were relatives of students preparing to fly to the Soviet Union, while about 15 were reportedly military officers.

Mrs Thatcher has always refused to meet leaders of the African National Congress, the Palestine Liberation Organisation, or other guerrilla movements on the grounds that they must first renounce violence.

A Downing Street spokesman said yesterday:

'The Afghans don't see themselves as revolutionaries. They're only trying to resist an invader and win back their freedom.'

'The Prime Minister has a degree of sympathy with the Afghan cause inasmuch as they're trying to rid their country of invaders, which you cannot say of the ANC and PLO,' he added.

Mr Haq said the purpose of the airport bombing was 'to warn people not to send their children to the Soviet Union.'

He also defended the firing of long-range rockets at Kabul which have also hit civilians.

'I have to free my country. My advice to people is not to stay close to the government. If you do, it's your fault. We use poor rockets; we cannot control them. They sometimes miss.


I don't care about people who live close to the Soviet Embassy, I feel sorry for them, but what can I do?' he said.

The Guardian (London), March 5, 1986

C) Why the Hell would you believe them anyway?

Perhaps for the same reason you should 'believe' an American Vice President who can't remember being involved in the sale of weapons to a state officially dubbed 'a terrorist regime'.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Never negotiate with terrorists.

A) It shows weakness
B) From now on they'll use that tactic, as precedent has been set
C) Why the Hell would you believe them anyway?

So that's why the IRA is still bombing Britain? Oh right, it isn't.

[SlowwHand]

No, they aren't. Another of your political belief relics.

Mass evacuation from Lebanon peaks

By Michele Kambas and Michael Winfrey
36 minutes ago

LARNACA, Cyprus (Reuters) - Ships and aircraft scooped more exhausted people fleeing the fighting in Lebanon to safety in Cyprus on Saturday in a mass international effort that has so far evacuated more than 25,000 people.

The European Union dispatched a team to help Cyprus cope with the huge wave of foreign evacuees, which is stretching the small island's resources at the height of its tourist season.

"We expect the number to triple in the coming days. There are more than 60,000 to 70,000 to be evacuated through Cyprus," said Foreign Minister Georgios Lillikas, inspecting a French-chartered boat in Larnaca that had brought over 1,200 people.

On the boat people were lying on sheets on the floor and long queues had formed outside the toilets. Many will have to stay in Cyprus for days before being sent home and the EU urged its members to help process evacuees faster.

Turkey started to share Cyprus's burden and hundreds of evacuees, mostly Canadian and some Swedish citizens, have also been arriving in the port of Mersin to the north of Cyprus, where they were welcomed with carnations.

"We are working at a capacity of about 1,000 people a day," Canadian ambassador to Ankara Yves Brodeur told Reuters."

U.S. officials in Cyprus said they expected to have evacuated about 4,000 and forwarded home 2,000 Americans on Saturday alone.

The amphibious transport USS Trenton, the biggest ship so far involved in the evacuation, docked earlier on Saturday at the Cypriot port of Limassol with some 1,800 people. The USS Nashville arrived later with another 1,000.

Evacuees described scenes of mayhem in Lebanon, where many had been holidaying or visiting family when the Israeli rockets began falling 11 days ago.

"I was at my club playing tennis and suddenly heard shelling over my head," said Eddy Munzer, 66, a retired lawyer from Florida. "The situation is so uncertain, I don't see any bright future in the short term.

AID POURS IN

Officials said the French humanitarian agency Medecins Sans Frontieres planned to send 60 tonnes of emergency aid through Cyprus to Lebanon.

Eleni Theocharous, a doctor with the Doctors of the World aid agency escorting 4,000 tonnes of medical supplies to Lebanon, said:

"We are going there to help those who don't have the opportunity to leave the country. For example, Palestinians who have no documents are stranded and need help."

France sent 20 tonnes of water, along with food and medicines, on Friday to Beirut and planned to dispatch a water purifying plant on Saturday.

Nearly 200 non-essential U.N. staff and their families walked ashore in Cyprus from a boat chartered by the world body. British and Australian service personnel also stepped up efforts to rescue their nationals.

"In the next couple of days we are really going to start moving a lot of people through here," Australia's High Commissioner in Cyprus, Garth Hunt, said in Larnaca.

"As far as we are concerned, nobody should have to fend for themselves," he said after welcoming ashore nearly 350 Australians from a Maltese catamaran contracted by Canberra.

Chartered ships were expected to bring 500 Australians, 1,100 Canadians and 400 Swiss to Larnaca later on Saturday.

Britain said Saturday would be its last scheduled evacuation by sea of its passport-holders from Beirut and urged those interested to gather at a conference hall in the Lebanese capital during the day.

(Additional reporting by David Clarke and Simon Bahceli, Thomas Grove in Mersin)

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
No, they aren't. Another of your political belief relics.

I think you have misunderstood his post. He was precisely using IRA as an example of a terrorist faction that stopped fighting, because negociations occured with them. IRA is a clear-cut example of negociation bringing a halt to terrorist activities, whereas force had proven useless for decades.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Never negotiate with terrorists.

Yes, otherwise they might become prime minister.

At that time, he became the leader of the liberation movement Irgun Tzvi Leumi- Etzel- whose means were more violent than the mainstream Haganah, with which he disagreed over how to push the British out of Palestine.

In 1946, under his leadership, the Irgun blew up a wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, where the British were headquartered. Some 90 people- Jews and Arabs, as well as British- were killed, despite warnings that there would be a bombing.

Begin’s picture, that of a wanted terrorist, was posted in all British prisons and offices in Palestine. The British conducted an extensive manhunt for Begin, who had a price on his head that began at $8,000 but was raised to $50,000. Begin escaped the British dragnet by disguising himself as a bearded Orthodox rabbi.

.

http://www.ou.org/chagim/yomhaatzmauth/begin.html

And look what Israeli prime ministers do!

[Cort Haus]

If anything it was the IRA that was desperate to negotiate, to give them a way to peace in the face of their radicals. IIRC the message to the long-existing Whitehall channels from the IRA was "the war cannot be won, it must be ended".

[Cort Haus]

I do agree with those who remind us that major Western governments are happy to support terrorists if they are 'our terrorists' (early Muj, Contras, KLA).

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
I do agree with those who remind us that major Western governments are happy to support freedom fighters if they are 'our freedom fighters' (early Muj, Contras, KLA).

Fixed.


Never forget- :

They are our brothers, these freedom fighters, and we owe them our help. I've spoken recently of the freedom fighters of Nicaragua. You know the truth about them. You know who they re fighting and why. They are the moral equal of our Founding Fathers and the brave men and women of the French Resistance. We cannot turn away from them for the struggle here is not right versus left; it is right versus wrong.

Ronald Reagan, speech to National Conservative Political Action Conference 8th March, 1985

But whatever you do, never, never

Never negotiate with terrorists.

'cos you never know who might be listening!

Ronald Reagan, speech about the Iran Contra affair November, 1986


" We did not - repeat, did not - trade weapons or anything else for hostages, nor will we. "



(3) Ronald Reagan, speech about the Iran Contra affair 4th March, 1987


" A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that’s true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not. "

I did not have terroristic intercourse with that regime!

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by molly bloom
And look what Israeli prime ministers do!

Look how much it accomplished! Most impressive!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Look how much it accomplished! Most impressive!

Yes, a dead Israeli prime minister assassinated by a fellow Israeli (sorry, contradicted by a brave freedom fighter).

Still, I'm not sure- are you contradicting Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. in this regard ?


Don't you feel that brave freedom fighters helped liberate Nicaragua and Afghanistan by forcing governments to negotiate with them, or withdraw ?

[Eli]

A proof that the "over-reaction" is working:

The Palestinian groups announced a unilateral cease fire, despite heavy Israeli activity in the Gaza Strip and large numbers of Palestinian casualties. The Israeli deterrence is starting to recover.

[molly bloom]

Friends in low places:

A chief terrorist with long ties to US intelligence agencies is seeking asylum in the United States. The FBI has evidence linking him to an airline bombing that killed 73 (seventy three people). We're talking about the notorious militant Cuban exile: Luis Posada Carriles. Today we speak with one of the few reporters who has interviewed him and the president of the national assembly of Cuba.

Luis Posada Carriles is a 77-year-old former CIA operative who was trained by the U.S. Army at Fort Benning in Georgia. He has been trying to violently overthrow Fidel Castro's government for four decades. Three weeks ago he entered the United States after years of hiding in Central America and the Caribbean.
It seemed to me that his reason for contacting me and contacting The New York Times is he wanted publicity. He said he was frustrated by the fact that he had been involved with this operation, this bombing operation in Cuba as part of the anti-Castro struggle, and that Castro was covering it up. I'm just giving you a paraphrase of his feelings – was that Castro was covering it up and that what Posada and his cohorts wanted is they wanted to inflict real damage in the tourist industry. They needed publicity because they needed to stop tourism in Cuba, he said. They needed to stop investment; they didn't want to hurt anybody, but what could you do? You had to continue the anti-Castro struggle, and that meant doing these bombing operations, and he said that,

you know, it was unfortunate about an Italian tourist being killed.

Ann Louise Bardach, journalist and author.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/09/148243