Do you believe in progress?

[Vesayen]

Don't forget that polls of youth show support for gay rights!

[Dis]

yes. things are much better than 50 or 60 (ww2 anyone?) years ago. 'nuff said. The evidence is there.

[Lancer]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


"Reservists shoulder heavy burden in Iraq By ANTONIO CASTANEDA, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 20 minutes ago

FALLUJAH, Iraq - Unlike many Marines in this dangerous city, Staff Sgt. George Scott could have said "no." He could have stayed home in Ohio with his two young sons. Pentagon rules limit the number of times reservists like Scott can be called to duty involuntarily. But Scott keeps coming back. He's on his third tour now, and said he'd volunteer for a fourth. "

Do you think George is your average Joe? Maybe an average George.

[Spiffor]

Most definitely

Slavery used to be the basis of all economies, it's now extremely marginal.
Constant warfare and petty feuds used to exist pretty much everywhere. They now only exist in Africa and some remote parts of the other continents.
With today's standards, Caesar (and any other conqueror of the time) would be considered a genocidial maniac. Back then, it wasn't.
Except in reactionary Arab countries, women are now citizens equal to men pretty much everywhere.
Famine and disease have gigantically receded. Smallpox is extinct. Plague is barely a threat to a few dozens people a decade.
We are much more safe from brutal death or wounds. Murder and lethal brawls have dramatically reduced.
Rape is seriously fought against. Child rape is hunted pretty much everywhere in the world, whereas it used to be ignored.
Much healthier lifestyles, with varied food and warm homes have blessed the west for some decades now. Recently, more countries have seen progresses in these healthy lifestyles, which used to be only for the nobles and kings.

I do think that many of these fantastic achievements are threatened in the current years. At the same time, their geographical scope expands (they concern more countries).

IMO, we are living in a much, much better world than centuries or millenia before.

[Provost Harrison]

Evil is a theological concept and therefore don't feel this is a rational argument. There are events going onto the world, but it certainly isn't a situation that can somehow be summed...

[General Ludd]

Things change, but everything remains essentially the same. I don't believe in progress. I'm not sure it's fair to say that things have gotten worse, but the more we "progress" the greater our destructive capabilities become.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Evil is a theological concept and therefore don't feel this is a rational argument. There are events going onto the world, but it certainly isn't a situation that can somehow be summed...

Agreed. "Evil" is irrelevant.

200 years ago a black man and a white woman getting married was "evil".

As for progress, there has certainly been significant progress in the last century, even in the last decades, at least, in those ways that can be measured. It has not been even everywhere, and in some areas there have been declines in fact, but overall humanity is better off today than 100 years ago, or 50.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Lancer
Speaking of the US I would say that before and during the world wars the average Joe was more ready to make the sacrifices needed to get the job done than folks today. I believe they were more ready because of faith, integrity, honor...

Sacrifices needed by who, for what? Maybe you could ask the bonus marchers?

As for now, maybe people have wised up at allowing themselves to be expended and their families torn apart so some multimillionaire white mother****ers can get bigger dividends on their stock portfolios? The same multimillionaire white mother****ers who would happily outsource "the average Joe's" job to the average Rajinder or the average Wang.

[Odin]

Technological progress? Yes.

The notions of social and moral progress popular in Victorian times? No.


I adhere to a cyclilical theory of history similar to that of Arnold Toynbee's, and the West is showing all the signs of a civilization in decline, and the post WW2 US is the equivalent to Augustinian Rome.

[Dis]

Victorian times? People were just as morally corrupt in any age, they just covered it up better. With notions such as chivalry.

People are more upfront about what they want, but this isn't necessarily bad. Men want sex, this has always been the case. But it's more apparant now.

I often contemplate this, and was in fact, thinking of making a similar thread. I've always wondered if things are going downhill like all the old timers said. I don't think so. I think the old timers are full of ****.

The 50's were not as sweet and rosey as everyone pictured it. There was a lot of hatred back then. Men still wanted ***** and money just as much as they do today. They just weren't as upfront about it. And they feared change just as any group fears change today. This is the reason for the racism and lynchings back then.

[chequita guevara]

It got better, but then it started getting worse again.

[Zkribbler]

50 years ago, democracies were rare. In fact, much of Africa was still colonial. Today, most of the world are democracies...at least nominally.

On the other hand, the Western nations have slipped deeper into the clutches of the plutocrats, whereby morality is measured in dollar signs. Quality public education; medical care for all; secure pensions -- the central question is no longer how can we do it, but how much does it cost, and will it raise our taxes?

[Lancer]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Sacrifices needed by who, for what? Maybe you could ask the bonus marchers?

As for now, maybe people have wised up at allowing themselves to be expended and their families torn apart so some multimillionaire white mother****ers can get bigger dividends on their stock portfolios? The same multimillionaire white mother****ers who would happily outsource "the average Joe's" job to the average Rajinder or the average Wang.

Mike, you may be right, likely are, but your post is a case in point.

[_BuRjaCi_]

Originally posted by Odin
Technological progress? Yes.

The notions of social and moral progress popular in Victorian times? No.


I adhere to a cyclilical theory of history similar to that of Arnold Toynbee's, and the West is showing all the signs of a civilization in decline, and the post WW2 US is the equivalent to Augustinian Rome.

To make that metafore more correct the US acheived a Pyric victory over the USSR and is now strugiling to maintain its fragile hold on the title of the worlds only superpower. Europe in such a metaphor has been the Western Roman Empire; more or less unimportant for the past two decades. While America is a sort of Eastern Roman Empire; not quite Roman but still an important factor for at least the next 60-70 years.

China however is defenitly in a golden age.

[_BuRjaCi_]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
50 years ago, democracies were rare. In fact, much of Africa was still colonial. Today, most of the world are democracies...at least nominally.

On the other hand, the Western nations have slipped deeper into the clutches of the plutocrats, whereby morality is measured in dollar signs. Quality public education; medical care for all; secure pensions -- the central question is no longer how can we do it, but how much does it cost, and will it raise our taxes?

Lets see:
-The need for more and more new taxes to maintain the "Empire"
-plague (hiv, bird flue, fat plague if you will)
-lead in pipes (well not lead, but Arsenic and pesticides and polution)
-long ocupations and constant war situations (the barbarians-terorists are at the gates )
-the unability to assimilate imigrants (see Europe)
-low demografic rates of Romans (see Europe)
-transition from republic to efficient empire to currupt state (19th century colonial ruthless "evil" superpowers to unimportant unefficient nation states)

Yup the second fall of Western civilisation is here.

While Europe does for the most part promote tolerance and human rights, I am seing some liberties cut for security reasons.

I am seing a pattern similar to the fall of the aincent Greeks; small divided states, folowed by uneficient attempts at unification then collaps or invasion by foreign force (probaly not the Arabs but I supose China could do it).