Do you believe in progress?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Lancer


Mike, you may be right, likely are, but your post is a case in point.

Not really. Since when is there more "honor" or "integrity" in any real sense in allowing oneself to be used? "Honor" and "integrity" as cynically misused marketing labels to induce people to allow themselves to be used isn't the same thing as honor and integrity in reality.

But the real problem destroying society is one we've never seen before - hordes of flag burning illegal border crossin' Messican ******s trying to destroy the family by co-opting marriage to legitimize their satan-inspired abominations.

[Lancer]

Nukes have made this world a more peaceful place but that will change with proliferation. Then, ask this question about progress again.

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Im not sure if any one has noticed that not much has changed over the years. I need evil defined!!! are we talking relegion or general human feelings?? If it is human feelings, the same feelings occur, they are just now about differnt things. if relegion god i dont want to go there. If you think about it all relegions no matter which one is evil.. they all tend to denouce one form of belief to an another that dosent coincide with thier beliefs. And to attack one for lack of belief then i say that is evil. rather then just agree to disagree one must make it an attepmt to force the other to agree.
Evil just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Saras
Guys, Soviet Union, a prison-state, is no more, and China, another prison-state, is less of a prison state.

But ther US is turing into a police state.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Odin


But ther US is turing into a police state.

saras is probably the wrong poster to try to sell that idea to.

[Lancer]

"Not really. Since when is there more "honor" or "integrity" in any real sense in allowing oneself to be used? "Honor" and "integrity" as cynically misused marketing labels to induce people to allow themselves to be used isn't the same thing as honor and integrity in reality."

Perhaps people in the US were all duped into fighting in the WWs by selfish politicos and industrialists who sacrificed nothing and made fortunes. However alot of other things happened then also, for example the defeat of the murderous nazis and the imperial Japanese who were raping & murdering their way across China. Now we face a new threat, world terrorism and nuclear and biological proliferation. Seems to me that we small fry, the big power broker industrialists, the Mexican crossing the border illegally for the oportunity to work in the fields, the cynical American hairball who thinks only of him/herself, the manipulating politicos with their disagreeable agendas, we're all in the same boat, under the threat of the same guns/nukes and murderous little bugs. We're in a war whether we feel like fighting it or not or whether we don't like those who profit from it or not or agree with the way it's fought or not. Our enemies are taking advantage and their soldiers are walking onto planes with bombs strapped on and killing themselve for their cause. We on the other hand...we are at war with ourselves. We are a house divided lacking all sense of commitment. Why? Because commitment comes from those rare things, honor, integrity, faith and faithfulness.

"But the real problem destroying society is one we've never seen before - hordes of flag burning illegal border crossin' Messican ******s trying to destroy the family by co-opting marriage to legitimize their satan-inspired abominations."

We need to find a way to bring these people in legally, in the order in which they apply. Right now it would take 14 years for Dolores to apply her brother, legally. Why obey laws of the land anymore? What do laws represent? Are they the will of the people to live in a civilization based on something? If not, just do away with them and let everyone in, but let it be the will of the citizenry of this country...like it or not.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
So "evil" is a culturally relative word, but "progress" is not?

Evil is a totally relative term. Progress as a concept is not.

[Jon Miller]

yeah, but beleiving in progress?

that is a whole different statement

JM

[OzzyKP]

I think we've improved greatly.

Civil rights, the fall of communism, the end of colonialism, women's rights, gay rights, much less war, war today has much less causualties.

All in all progress.

We still have far to go of course.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Geronimo


saras is probably the wrong poster to try to sell that idea to.

And Odin is the wrong poster to buy that idea from.

[Lancer]

Progess has brought to governments new means to control populations. If your government needed throwing out a couple of hundred years ago you got your musket and went up against guys with muskets. Today, you might get your hunting rifle and go up against super choppers with infra red and miniguns. Not only that, but today they have satalites, they know you're coming. If you talk on the phone, they know you're planning. Really, I don't have much hope for a modern revolution.

[Pekka]

Lancer, Ah! That's something I consider to be wise words. The setting is, that there is an opportunity to do this (take control and keep it). THat's why I'm against all unnecessary surveillance for example. It gives tools for further dominance, that ultimately always leads into abuse of those tools and the citizens will pay for it.

Just imagine if your country was taken over by evil nazis, the information that was available for them.. oh man, there would be lots of people going missing. Gays, activists... all kinds of people. One more reason I don't like the idea of gathering data for long periods of time.

[Lancer]

Pekka, that's right, but there's a war to fight. Shouldn't we use all the tools on our belt when to not do so will cost the lives of our soldiers and ourselves, when terrorists do what they do?

[Pekka]

Yes, if in fact wide domestic surveillance would work .

So, not all means. If the one thing you want to defend is freedom, then why strip it from your own citizens? Anyway, it's completely another debate, however, I think the modern tools and means of war if civil clashes were about to happen are much more about technology than guns. Take control, steal the information, steal all information, modify, destroy, do your own propaganda etc. There are lots of methods for this kind of activity. It calls for.. HACKERS! The nerds will save us at the end.

[Lancer]