Innocent idiots beg forgiveness

[Lancer]

The US was around, the people weren't.

[Lancer]

That said, some of this slavery, and the killing of a great many native americans was done by the europeans prior to US indepenance.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by yin26

Because I don't think anybody really can. And let me ask you, if the Africans don't take it seriously, why should you?

These things can take time. Have you always believed someone the first time they said sorry?

Let me share with you a story: My aunt was murdered in the woods outside her house. Her boyfriend took a shotgun to the back of her head and then blew his own head off. Now, if that boyfriend's grandson went to a soccer stadium (presumably of strangers, right?) holding a toy shotgun to apologize for the general sin of murder, what would that accomplish other than entertainment for some and pity for the guy from others?

I'd say I feel sorry about your aunt, but you'd probably say I was stupid for it, regardless of whether I actually do - which I do, because untimely death is always something I feel bad about...I guess maybe I'm just TOO human.

This analogy is not that great. Perhaps it would be different if the stadium was filled with people whose grandparents lives had somehow been affected by her death. In that case, I can't see the problem.

Now, even assuming that my aunt's grandson was also in the stadium, and assuming the boyfriend's grandson mentioned the murdered person and the murderer by name, a) why would the rest of the stadium care and b) what is my aunt's grandson supposed to do? It doesn't bring back a family member. It doesn't punish the murderer. It doesn't substitute as an apology from the actual guilty person.

Its a gesture. Get over it.

All it does is highlight the fact that one misguided person, who seeks catharsis for something he should feel no guilt for, has imposed his wounded ego on a people who would much rather be moving on with their own lives rather than watching the pitiful strutting of a self-mutilated bird that hates its own wings...but loves the attention.

Assumptions:

1.) That those who saw it at the festival weren't appreciative of it.
2.) That he's only doing it for himself.
3.) The people would much rather be moving on and "just forget about the past". - This one's my fave. A whole continent is ravaged by slavery, millions kidnapped, families destroyed, nations created based not on tribal boundaries...and they "all just want to move on". Issues like this don't just end with the last generation to suffer directly.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Lancer
The US was around, the people weren't.

The family was around. What's the difference?

[Lancer]

You're right. Nations shouldn't apologise for stuff its politicians weren't around to effect.

Except Germany of course.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


Since when is an "I'm sorry" ever worthless?

Lets say the United States was apologizing for slavery. That would probably be ok with everyone here, even though no one is around who is responsible. So why shouldn't families of slaveholders be able to do the same thing in the way they think they should?

And being sorry is a lot better than not being sorry, and infact still being mildly racist, as a friend of mine who comes from slave money is.

Sorry, I was caught by everyone mentioning "sorry", wich isn't what I really meant. You are right that you can feel sorry, even for what may have happend hundreds of years ago.

Problem is that they didn't say that they felt sorry for the past, they apologised and wanted forgiveness for what others had done, and that doesn't make sense - you can't apologise for others.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

You're right. Nations shouldn't apologise for stuff its politicians weren't around to effect.

Except Germany of course.

Wrong. Its perfectly fine for nations to apologize, as it is for families.

Especially Germany of course.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

BlackCat: I do see your point. However, we look at the reasons for this gesture from different perspectives.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Lancer
You're right. Nations shouldn't apologise for stuff its politicians weren't around to effect.

Except Germany of course.

Add evil Finland to that - they should apologise for even to exist

[yin26]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
These things can take time. Have you always believed someone the first time they said sorry?

Time is exactly the point. This happened hundreds of years ago. An apology now from the person not responsible is just stupid.

I'd say I feel sorry about your aunt, but you'd probably say I was stupid for it, regardless of whether I actually do - which I do, because untimely death is always something I feel bad about...I guess maybe I'm just TOO human.

No, I'd say feeling sorry about something tragic makes sense. For you to apologize personally for the murder IS stupid. See the difference? I feel sorry slavery happened, but I'm not the person to apologize for it, am I?

This analogy is not that great. Perhaps it would be different if the stadium was filled with people whose grandparents lives had somehow been affected by her death. In that case, I can't see the problem.

The analogy is right on in this regard: Do you think everybody in Africa was affected by slavery? You DO know, for instance, that certain African tribal heads were complicit in the selling of their own captured rivals, right? You see, there is grey in the world.

Its a gesture. Get over it.

It's a self-serving, misguided and ludicrus gesture. I think it's alternately funny and pathetic. I suppose that means I'm "over" it?

A whole continent is ravaged by slavery, millions kidnapped, families destroyed, nations created based not on tribal boundaries...and they "all just want to move on". Issues like this don't just end with the last generation to suffer directly.

Exactly. The "issue" is history...and no apology can change it. Again, that tribal elder didn't take the gesture seriously, yet YOU do. Doesn't that tell you something about liberal guilt?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
BlackCat: I do see your point. However, we look at the reasons for this gesture from different perspectives.

That is probably very true. I don't consider it a gesture. A more correct label would be an offense. Some people that has nothing to do with slavery except by bloodline ask for forgiveness for it - that simply doesn't make sense since they haven't any guilt in what happened way back.

Even if such behaviour was appropriate, where would you set the limit ? Should danes start to travel around their neighbour countries and do the same because they pretty systematically plundered them and brought back thralls en masse in the past ?

[The Emperor Fabulous]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by yin26

Time is exactly the point. This happened hundreds of years ago.

Nice try.

An apology now from the person not responsible is just stupid.

No it isn't.

No, I'd say feeling sorry about something tragic makes sense. For you to apologize personally for the murder IS stupid. See the difference?

Well I'm glad we both know the difference.

I feel sorry slavery happened, but I'm not the person to apologize for it, am I?

You can be if your family was involved. What I'm not understanding is why you think there should be such a seperation between family decendents. You inherit reputation, you inherit a tradition...why can you not inherit the guilt that may follow? And then, why can you not do something about it?

Well...you can...its not like anything you're talking about is going to stop them from doing it.

The analogy is right on in this regard: Do you think everybody in Africa was affected by slavery? You DO know, for instance, that certain African tribal heads were complicit in the selling of their own captured rivals, right? You see, there is grey in the world.

Don't insult my intelligence. If anything I know how grey the world is, which is why I hate American politics. And before I was an actor I was an Anthropology major, studying African and South American tribes' cultures and histories. So please, don't talk down to me.

Last I checked, they didn't do this for all of Africa. I'd bet (though, true, I don't have proof) that if this guy went through all this planning, he probably picked an area affected by his family. I doubt his family is responsible for all African trade.

It's a self-serving, misguided and ludicrus gesture. I think it's alternately funny and pathetic. I suppose that means I'm "over" it?

I'm just about over this argument.

Exactly. The "issue" is history...and no apology can change it. Again, that tribal elder didn't take the gesture seriously, yet YOU do. Doesn't that tell you something about liberal guilt?

I don't feel guilty about it. My family didn't do anything. If it did, then I would.

[yin26]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Nice try.

Great answer.

No it isn't.

I think you're wrong. You think I'm wrong. I guess we agree to disagree.

Well I'm glad we both know the difference.

Honestly, I'm not so sure.

You can be if your family was involved. What I'm not understanding is why you think there should be such a seperation between family decendents. You inherit reputation, you inherit a tradition...why can you not inherit the guilt that may follow? And then, why can you not do something about it?

Well, this is where we differ...in a big way. One of the great advancements (I suppose they talk about this in Anthropology classes?) in civilization is precisely breaking this link between ancestor and descendents on issues such as debts, etc. Prior to this kind of separation, the servant class would virtually remain the servant class forever because it always inherited the debts and the reputation of its ancestors. If you choose to carry the weight of other peoples' mistakes on your shoulders, you're free to do so. I won't call it stupid because I will respect your choice. I do wonder, though, even if you take on all these mistakes (and if you were to dig up your family history far enough, you'd be apologizing until the day you die), what good would be served? Frankly, if your family ever did my family harm, you know what I would ask of you? : Please let us both "break the chain" by respecting each other on our own terms.

Don't insult my intelligence. If anything I know how grey the world is, which is why I hate American politics. And before I was an actor I was an Anthropology major, studying African and South American tribes' cultures and histories. So please, don't talk down to me.

Your sensibilities seem a bit raw on this issue, and I don't mean to insult you. Are you sure your studies of these tribes isn't making you too open to emotion on the issue? I was this way in the first years of living in Korea, blaming the outside world for all its woes (being conquered by Japan, having innocents murdered by the U.S. during the Korean war, etc.). But you know what? Korea had many opportunities to avoid these outcomes, too. Again, grey areas.

Last I checked, they didn't do this for all of Africa. I'd bet (though, true, I don't have proof) that if this guy went through all this planning, he probably picked an area affected by his family. I doubt his family is responsible for all African trade.

Right, you "bet." I "bet" he didn't. What we do know, though, is the tribal leader didn't find it compelling.

I'm just about over this argument.

I'd call it a discussion, really, but I'm happy for it to end because I think we've discovered (rather civilly) in what ways we differ on this. Fine by me. Thanks for the chat.

I don't feel guilty about it. My family didn't do anything. If it did, then I would.

Well, like I said, dig deeply enough in any family history and you'll find murder, unpaid debts, and the general, ugly mass of what makes up the human existence. Apologize for it by proxy, if you will. Might as well apologize that any of us are here at all.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Well, I said just about over

Just a few things:

1.) My sensibilities aren't blinded by the fact that I studied these tribes. I know the subject, but I'm not that passionate about it. It just seemed like you were talking down to me. That's a pet peeve of mine.

2.) The effects of slavery are still present in Africa. They didn't just go away because we got further from the fact. Time is relative.

3.) On top of that, let me expand upon the "nice try". You used time in a different manner than I meant it. I meant it might take a few acts like this for the tribal leaders to take it seriously, but the fact that they didn't take it seriously indicates to me that they aren't over it, as you suggest. Perhaps this man will be able to affect some good?

4.) My biggest issue with this discussion is that this guy (and all the others who partook) is being pissed on for what I perceive as a genuine display of emotion. I think this is a good thing. I don't think it MUST be done, but I think the fact that it was is admirable.

Look, I don't think we have to apologize for every bloody thing that happens. But he does feel the need to apologize for this. I can't take any offense to that.

The only way I would change my perception is if it turned out he was trying to make a profit. Then, I'll join the spitting.

[Ecthy]

I don't know who I should believe.

Yin is the guy who had himself recorded eating the package of Civ IV

Emp Fab is only an arts guy, but he took out a fella with martial arts

Two guys deserving an entry in everyone's Cool Book disagreeing. Tricky.