The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

[Arrian]

Competition. Yaweh doesn't like it.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Re: Re: Re: The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

Originally posted by Proteus_MST

Does still look like he tolerates human sacrifices, like the sacrifice of the daughter of Jephta in Judges XI: 30-40

Umm, where does it say that He supports or even tolerates Jephta's actions?

Judges is an example of Israel not having a King.

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by aneeshm


I've realised that this is the only way to actually understand the roots of a religion . I plan to do exactly this . If there is something else I have to read in order to understand Christainity or Islam , I'd request the forumers to tell me .

A small doubt - is the King James Version of the Bible authentic enough for a student like me ?



Hinduism , because it allowed dissenting thought to flourish , has become too complex to be understood by just reading one text . Hinduism has evolved very far from its Vedic roots . To understand Hinduism , I recommend reading , in order :

1) The Vedas ( with the commentary of the Brahmanas is you need it )
2) The Upanishads
3) The Puranas
4) The Ramayana and The Mahabharata if you want to know the Hindu view of the history which shaped itself
6) The Book "Indian Philosophy : Volume Two" by Dr. Sarvapellai Radhakrishnan ( it deals with the six later Hindu schools of thought , the ones whose influence is most relevant today )

Thanks for those suggestions, I will pick up a copy as well I believe. Any better translations?

Despite the proponents, it is almost definitely the case that not only is the KJV harder to read then newer versions, but it is at times based off of less acurate, newer copies (as olders ones have come to light, and they did not have access to the old Catholic one). One generally really has to look for differences though.

I would recommend the New Revised Standard Version, although I think the New International Version is the most widely used New Bible (the New King James Version is also good).

Jon Miller

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by aneeshm


I've realised that this is the only way to actually understand the roots of a religion . I plan to do exactly this . If there is something else I have to read in order to understand Christainity or Islam , I'd request the forumers to tell me .

A small doubt - is the King James Version of the Bible authentic enough for a student like me ?

Christianity is also extremely complex and this makes it difficult to suggest what other materials you would need to read to understand christianity.

On the one hand the bible really is the only text that all christians will agree has religious value.

On the other hand it seems that only protestant evangelicals claim to rely on it as their exclusive authority on religious matters. They will tend to have some very convoluted interpretations of the bible but it seems they all insist that the bible should only be interpreted in the most straightforward manner possible and reject the notion that you need anything else to understand it. I begin to think there are as many evangelical versions of christianity as their are evangelical christians just from my many conversations with evangelical proselytizers.

In contrast, all other christians will insist that other teachings/writings/guidance is essential. If you read the bible you would technically also need to acquaint yourself with these other sources to really understand any of the other forms of christianity. I haven't tried to go much beyond just reading the bible for this reason.

Also when reading the bible take note of how very different the actual values and behavior of christians are from so much of what seems to be found in it's pages. This is relevant to when you recently asked in another thread if it were appropriate to judge an entire religion if so many individual teaching of that religion were objectionable. As you can see after reading the bible and looking at the history of christianity it doesn't really matter what those teachings are or how many of them are objectionable. There is no limit to the degree that even a religion that claims it's teachings immutable and eternal revelations in a book can evolve and diversify over the ages. This evolution and diversification of christianity is even more amazing when you consider that at least until the protestant reformation dissenting thought was not really at all allowed to flourish in the countries where the vast majority of christians lived.

Originally posted by aneeshm
Hinduism , because it allowed dissenting thought to flourish , has become too complex to be understood by just reading one text . Hinduism has evolved very far from its Vedic roots . To understand Hinduism , I recommend reading , in order :

1) The Vedas ( with the commentary of the Brahmanas is you need it )
2) The Upanishads
3) The Puranas
4) The Ramayana and The Mahabharata if you want to know the Hindu view of the history which shaped itself
6) The Book "Indian Philosophy : Volume Two" by Dr. Sarvapellai Radhakrishnan ( it deals with the six later Hindu schools of thought , the ones whose influence is most relevant today )

thanks! this is exactly the kind of answer I needed.

[Proteus_MST]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Umm, where does it say that He supports or even tolerates Jephta's actions?

Judges is an example of Israel not having a King.

Jon Miller

I can see no passage which says that the Lord takes any action against Jephta, fulfilling his vow to the Lord by sacrificing his daughter as a burnt offering
(Jephta swore that if he came back vistorious from the Ammonites he would sacrifice as a burtn offering the first being which would approach him upon returning home and it was his daughter which approached him first and, as Judges states, in the end he fulfilled his vow. So we can conclude that he really sacrificed his daughter as a burnt offering to the Lord.).

I also don´t see any passages where the Lord condemns Jephtas burnt-offering or where he punishes him for it.

[Datajack Franit]

molly bloom, back from burning Danish embassies already?

[Jon Miller]

No, but in the judges is example after example of people screwing up and not doing what is right. And after every story it explains the wrongness that is shown by saying that Israel had no King. (the implication is that God should have been their King, but He was not, this was 'fixed' to some extant when He gave them Saul to be King)

It should tell you that you aren't understanding something when those who have studied Judaism/Christianity point to Abraham/Isaac as the example of God being objectionable.

Jon Miller

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


Thanks for those suggestions, I will pick up a copy as well I believe. Any better translations?

Jon Miller

Thanks for the suggestions . I would recommend the english translation of the Valmiki Ramayana and Mahabharata by the Gita Press , Gorakhpur ( but because it is a Hindu organisation , concerned mainly with Hindus , it will be impossible to get their books outside India ( I sometimes lament this peculiarly Hindu custom of completely ignoring everything outside our own borders ( it was fine when we were the best in the world , but now it is a hindrance ( we can return to it later , when we are again at the top , whenever that is ) ) ) ) . If possible , write to the Gita Press , or e-mail them , and ask if they can ship outside India .

As for the translation of the Vedas - do not go by the popular but misleading translation done by Max Muller - he was interested only in "uprooting all that had sprung from the Vedic tradition" ( and these are his own words , not mine ) . Some of the Upanishads are quite well-done by Swami Nikhilananda ( search for the words nikhilananda upanishads on google ) . The Puranas I don't know where to find , because I will read them in one of the Indic languages ( I don't know sanskrit , but I do know Hindi and Marathi , so I can read them Puranas in them ) . "Indian Philosophy : Volume Two" was originally written in English , so that should be no problem ( for you ) .

[Cort Haus]

Re: Re: The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

Originally posted by The diplomat
We get angry when we see social injuctice around us, don't we? Imagine how the creator of the universe would feel seeing his creation murdering, raping, oppressing ethnic groups, etc...

From what I remember of Leviticus (the book that long ago made me reject Christianity), it was the so-called 'God' who is precisely advocating this sort of behaviour. Murder, war, slavery, rape - it's all approved of under the right circumstances (ie - to your enemies).

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by aneeshm


Thanks for the suggestions . I would recommend the english translation of the Valmiki Ramayana and Mahabharata by the Gita Press , Gorakhpur ( but because it is a Hindu organisation , concerned mainly with Hindus , it will be impossible to get their books outside India ( I sometimes lament this peculiarly Hindu custom of completely ignoring everything outside our own borders ( it was fine when we were the best in the world , but now it is a hindrance ( we can return to it later , when we are again at the top , whenever that is ) ) ) ) . If possible , write to the Gita Press , or e-mail them , and ask if they can ship outside India .

So I probably shouldn't even bother looking to see if they have it online somewhere?

[aneeshm]

Originally posted by Geronimo


Christianity is also extremely complex and this makes it difficult to suggest what other materials you would need to read to understand christianity.

On the one hand the bible really is the only text that all christians will agree has religious value.

On the other hand it seems that only protestant evangelicals claim to rely on it as their exclusive authority on religious matters. They will tend to have some very convoluted interpretations of the bible but it seems they all insist that the bible should only be interpreted in the most straightforward manner possible and reject the notion that you need anything else to understand it. I begin to think there are as many evangelical versions of christianity as their are evangelical christians just from my many conversations with evangelical proselytizers.

In contrast, all other christians will insist that other teachings/writings/guidance is essential. If you read the bible you would technically also need to acquaint yourself with these other sources to really understand any of the other forms of christianity. I haven't tried to go much beyond just reading the bible for this reason.

Also when reading the bible take note of how very different the actual values and behavior of christians are from so much of what seems to be found in it's pages. This is relevant to when you recently asked in another thread if it were appropriate to judge an entire religion if so many individual teaching of that religion were objectionable. As you can see after reading the bible and looking at the history of christianity it doesn't really matter what those teachings are or how many of them are objectionable. There is no limit to the degree that even a religion that claims it's teachings immutable and eternal revelations in a book can evolve and diversify over the ages. This evolution and diversification of christianity is even more amazing when you consider that at least until the protestant reformation dissenting thought was not really at all allowed to flourish in the countries where the vast majority of christians lived.

The history is Christianity is quite interesting , yes .

Originally posted by Geronimo

thanks! this is exactly the kind of answer I needed.

Please refer to my previous post ( a reply to Jon Miller ) about which translations are reliable .

[Geronimo]

Re: Re: Re: The god of the old testament has . . . . issues

Originally posted by Cort Haus


From what I remember of Leviticus (the book that long ago made me reject Christianity), it was the so-called 'God' who is precisely advocating this sort of behaviour. Murder, war, slavery, rape - it's all approved of under the right circumstances (ie - to your enemies).

leviticus is indeed a difficult read. I also found christianity a lot less palatable after reading it than I had before.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by aneeshm


The history is Christianity is quite interesting , yes .




Please refer to my previous post ( a reply to Jon Miller ) about which translations are reliable .

anyway the gist of my long post was really that it's probably prudent to not bother going further than reading the bible if you're only interested in general insight into christianity.

[Arrian]

It's not just Leviticus, though. God is pretty clearly a deranged sadist even w/o Leviticus.

-Arrian

[Jon Miller]

Popular Christianity mostly doesn't deal with Leviticus and the like... I would read Jewish books to gain insight into those. (Christian Theologians of course do discuss it, in any case, it takes more study)

Jon Miller