June 5th, 1989

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by GePap
Most people in China have probably never seen that picture, and could not tell you were it comes from.

The Central Government has been very successful at erasing history at home.

How many Americans could identify pictures of the U.S. Army attacking the Bonus Marcher Camp?

[Mao]

Originally posted by GePap
Most people in China have probably never seen that picture, and could not tell you were it comes from.

The Central Government has been very successful at erasing history at home.

I wonder how true that is. I was in Beijing at the time, and living not far from where it took place (although I was very young), but it seems that everyone on my block had seen that footage. I remember seeing it even. I wonder how well they really are erasing history...

[Winston]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
How many Americans could identify pictures of the U.S. Army attacking the Bonus Marcher Camp?

No, no, no. It's Don't tell me this couldn't have happened in the U.S.

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by Q Cubed


I may be a dork, but at least I'm not Texan.

Dorkdom

This is it? THIS, is your best shot?

[Q Classic]

Originally posted by SlowwHand


This is it? THIS, is your best shot?

Not really. I just can't be arsed to think of something clever and witty in reply.

Tiananmen

[GePap]

Originally posted by Mao


I wonder how true that is. I was in Beijing at the time, and living not far from where it took place (although I was very young), but it seems that everyone on my block had seen that footage. I remember seeing it even. I wonder how well they really are erasing history...

Yes, at the time of the events it was shown.

They had a program were last year a group of students in Beijing University, the premier University in China, were shown the photo. They had four students. Only 1 had the slighest recognition of the photo. These people were kids at the time of the incident, so they would not likely remember. But now they are growing up, and they are not seeing that image. That is how you erase history, you make sure the next generation does not see it, and with time, the "memory" vanishes.

[GePap]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


How many Americans could identify pictures of the U.S. Army attacking the Bonus Marcher Camp?

I think most American's don't remember what that is. Thought that is a case of history being forgotten through lazyness, not an outright campaign by the government.

[Mao]

Originally posted by GePap


Yes, at the time of the events it was shown.

They had a program were last year a group of students in Beijing University, the premier University in China, were shown the photo. They had four students. Only 1 had the slighest recognition of the photo. These people were kids at the time of the incident, so they would not likely remember. But now they are growing up, and they are not seeing that image. That is how you erase history, you make sure the next generation does not see it, and with time, the "memory" vanishes.

Heh, I'll dispute PKU being the best university in China later .

At any rate though, that's interesting, since the students would probably be my age and I definitely still recollect the pictures. Maybe it's because I've been in the West, maybe not. Do you think this trend will continue with so many Chinese people leaving China and coming into contact with the West? I mean, when I was in China, the students I talked to all knew what happened on 6-4 (we call it 6-4 in China), all you have to literally do is say the numbers "six four" and they know exactly what you're talking about and the general outline of events. I didn't have a copy of the pic to show them of course. Then again, my experience might be pretty idiosyncratic, I don't know.

I wonder how many in the West know exactly what happened in Tiananmen Square, other than the massacre. I mean, how many know the protests before, what they were about, etc. etc.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Mao


Heh, I'll dispute PKU being the best university in China later .

At any rate though, that's interesting, since the students would probably be my age and I definitely still recollect the pictures. Maybe it's because I've been in the West, maybe not. Do you think this trend will continue with so many Chinese people leaving China and coming into contact with the West? I mean, when I was in China, the students I talked to all knew what happened on 6-4 (we call it 6-4 in China), all you have to literally do is say the numbers "six four" and they know exactly what you're talking about and the general outline of events. I didn't have a copy of the pic to show them of course. Then again, my experience might be pretty idiosyncratic, I don't know.

If you are in college now, then at the time, most people were what? 7 or 8? I do recall seeing some things at that age, but without reenforcement it is mroe easy to forget.

I would think that being in the west, with repeated exposure to the picture does certainly help, as opposed to being in China, with none. More importantly, how many people living out in the country ever saw it? As for Chinese leavcing the country, I think the question would be the purpose. Chinese studying outside of China would certainly come into contact with the Western images of the protests. Just tourists might not have the opportunity- I mean, in what context would they see it?

I wonder how many in the West know exactly what happened in Tiananmen Square, other than the massacre. I mean, how many know the protests before, what they were about, etc. etc.

All I know is that Gorbachev visited and spoke to the Chinese leadership, and then a high ranking government official who had advocated opening up the party died, so people gathered to mourn him, and those gatherings got bigger and became a pro-democracy rally that lasted several days, if not a couple of weeks, as more people gathered there. The Party was split on how to handle the whole situation, but at the end of the day the hardliners won the day and eventually they moved the clear the square.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Mao




I wonder how many in the West know exactly what happened in Tiananmen Square, other than the massacre. I mean, how many know the protests before, what they were about, etc. etc.

Well, I only know what I have read and there again that means maybe not exactly what happened. I read what I could through articles, it was for reform for one thing and mourning of Hu Yaobang and later for a few that defaced property there

[Ecthy]

I think he survived that day and was later punished for that stunt. No known sentence for sure. he might be dead, might be in prison.

[Mao]

Originally posted by GePap


If you are in college now, then at the time, most people were what? 7 or 8? I do recall seeing some things at that age, but without reenforcement it is mroe easy to forget.

Yeah, that's probably true.

I would think that being in the west, with repeated exposure to the picture does certainly help, as opposed to being in China, with none. More importantly, how many people living out in the country ever saw it? As for Chinese leavcing the country, I think the question would be the purpose. Chinese studying outside of China would certainly come into contact with the Western images of the protests. Just tourists might not have the opportunity- I mean, in what context would they see it?

Well, the Chinese Diaspora is something somewhat well documented. The ones I'm referring to are the ones studying, as the tourist trade from China is growing, but I still don't think it's really significant.

Also, as an interesting aside about emigration, when Deng relaxed restrictions on Chinese citizens going abroad, his advisors said to him, "But sir, if they leave, many won't come back." Deng apparently looked at this advisor and smiled, replying, "That's OK. They are Chinese. They will come back when China is ready for them." The anecdote really brought my view of Deng a lot higher up. Not that that's neither here nor there, I just thought it was interesting.

[/quote]

All I know is that Gorbachev visited and spoke to the Chinese leadership, and then a high ranking government official who had advocated opening up the party died, so people gathered to mourn him, and those gatherings got bigger and became a pro-democracy rally that lasted several days, if not a couple of weeks, as more people gathered there. The Party was split on how to handle the whole situation, but at the end of the day the hardliners won the day and eventually they moved the clear the square. [/QUOTE]

Yep, that sums it up pretty well, but it's also one-sided. The actions of the students have to be examined too. By the time of the massacre, there were only a fraction of the people there than at its height. I once saw "Gate of Heavenly Peace" (http://www.tsquare.tv/) which I thought was an excellent analysis of the events. It showed both sides of the disaster that was Tiananmen Square. It also showed an interview with the student leader that emerged at the end, a female student. When I saw the interview, my hate and disgust at the communist government was almost equaled by my hate and disgust of her (she now lives in Cambridge IIRC). I now almost put as much responsibility for Tiananmen Square on her as I do on the leadership.

The movement itself was fascinating. At one point students were coming into Beijing at such a pace that "leaders" of the movement (random students who kinda wanted to conscript their own squads from the railway stations) would show up at the railway station, tell a group "OK, we're going to the protest, you'll be XX Brigade [insert clever name here]," but in reality it seems so disorganized and there was a lot of infighting even between the student leaders themselves. When asked about their plans, the military nature of the student protest was interesting to me too. They would pull out maps and say things to the effect of "OK, here we need more troops to protect this flank" etc. etc. The spirit there was fascinating to me, especially the lack of a definition of terms such as "democracy."

I mean, I have a pretty nuanced view of what happened there, and I think I've yet to truly make up my mind about it.

[GePap]

No one has a cleu about who that guy was. I don't think his identity was ever made public.

[Mao]

Originally posted by Ecthy
I think he survived that day and was later punished for that stunt. No known sentence for sure. he might be dead, might be in prison.

I remember someone claimed to have been that guy later in the week (day). He was never seen again AFAIK. He didn't have any proof it was him of course, but if it wasn't, he'd have to be pretty retarded to claim it was him.

Also, the Chinese media's spin on the images was interesting. It was shown far and wide when it took place, with the commentators saying something like "Now, if the Chinese government truly were malicious and wanted to just kill people like the West says, why wouldn't we just run over this man? This proves the caring of the government."

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by GePap


I think most American's don't remember what that is. Thought that is a case of history being forgotten through lazyness, not an outright campaign by the government.

Lazyness...

Well, americans are amazingly lazy, but it's quite a bit of a stretch to say that is the only reason it's not remembered.