Chalk up another few thousand deaths for abstinence-only education

[Ben Kenobi]

From your link:

Botswana: 37.3% pop.

Uganda: 4.1% pop

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I'm not sure your point gepap. Ms. Kaleeba is saying that she was inadvertantly protected through her condom use. I sincerely doubt that she preferred her first line of defense to be a condom.

Hello you doffus!

She was married to a man "faithfully". So abstinance was a non-issue for her. Beinge faithful would not have saved her from dying from AIDS, like her husband did. It was a condom.

Abstinance has 100 success because it means no sex. No sex also means no procreation. AIDS stops, so does the human species.

Be faithful is a strategy that works by limiting the number of sexual partners you have, thus limitng your risk. But if you are faithfull to a partner with AIDS, well....

A Condom prevents the spread of the disease if you are unsure about the status of your partner with rehards to HIV. It is therefore another successful strategy for keeping AIDS from spreading.

Hence, what Ms. Kabeela, someone with far FAR more experience on AIDS than you Ben, said. Its a truple strategy that works, FULL strategy. YOu can not ignore any section of it.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
From your link:

Botswana: 37.3% pop.

Uganda: 4.1% pop

Very good Ben! You can read!

And now read the damned interviews. You will see that that difference is based on the fact Uganda's government was the FIRST in the world to undertake a comprehensive nation wide strategy to combat AIDS, to inform the population, and to give support for those with AIDS. Uganda is a success story. As Ms. Kabeela, one of the persons very responsible for that success states, the strategy from the start was ABC. NOw thanks to the strategies pushed by the Bush admin, and by people like you, the rate of infection has gone up.

That is simple, hard proof that Uganda's original ABC strategy works, and that your AB strategy is less effective.

Care to manhandle numbers some more?

[Ben Kenobi]

My AB strategy? Where have I said that the condoms are not part of the success in Uganda.

The argument I am making is that condoms are the last resort if neither of the other two will work. So please, if you are going to debate, debate on what I say, and not what you wish I said.

As for your numbers, if you note, they are even lower the Loinburger's and would seem to put the lie that the Uganda numbers are at all elevated from previous periods. That is what I found significant, along with the higher Botswana numbers.

You are making my case for me better then I was making my own case.

[Ben Kenobi]

She was married to a man "faithfully". So abstinance was a non-issue for her. Beinge faithful would not have saved her from dying from AIDS, like her husband did. It was a condom.

True, but that also confirms what I was saying that her first line of defense were not condoms. Plus she acknowledges that she used the condoms for a purpose entirely unrelated to AIDS transmission, ie, birth control.

So please tell me why she ought to be the poster child for why condom use ought to be sought for preventation of AIDS? It seems to me much more obvious that the steps she took were right in line with ABC, in that she first decided to be faithful to her partner rather then rely on condoms to protect her from AIDS.

Abstinance has 100 success because it means no sex. No sex also means no procreation. AIDS stops, so does the human species.

Abstinence until marriage is generally the position taken by those favouring abstinence. So please, deal with their arguments, not your own.

Be faithful is a strategy that works by limiting the number of sexual partners you have, thus limitng your risk. But if you are faithfull to a partner with AIDS, well....

True, you are relying upon your own partner to be faithful to you. The trouble with your argument here is that it is entirely possible for them to have sex with each other to have kids without ever having the possibility of getting AIDS.

If both wait until marriage, and then are faithful to each other, they have no chance of getting AIDS at all.

Hence, what Ms. Kabeela, someone with far FAR more experience on AIDS than you Ben, said. Its a truple strategy that works, FULL strategy. YOu can not ignore any section of it.

Who said I'm ignoring it? All I'm saying is that it's like wearing three pieces of armour, with the last one being a small little sheet of rubber. Yes, it helps to wear it, but I'd rather rely upon something sturdier overtop.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
My AB strategy? Where have I said that the condoms are not part of the success in Uganda.

The argument I am making is that condoms are the last resort if neither of the other two will work. So please, if you are going to debate, debate on what I say, and not what you wish I said.

Except that you keep calling condoms a last resort. That is not what they are. They were not a "last resort" for Noreen Kabeela. She had done everything that would be required of her under just "abstitance, be faithful". It was a condom that saved her.

As for your numbers, if you note, they are even lower the Loinburger's and would seem to put the lie that the Uganda numbers are at all elevated from previous periods. That is what I found significant, along with the higher Botswana numbers.

:LOL:

HELLO! Loinburgers numbers show a increase in infection rates since the Ugandans have begun to give less focus to condoms and more to abstinance and faithfullness as the cures.

That is all his numbers say, all they show, and all they need to show to make his point.

You are making my case for me better then I was making my own case.

Actually I am making Noreen Kabeels'a case, and not as well as hers, and Noreen would never call condoms a "last resort", but instead part of a comprehensive strategy.

So here is the moment of truth Ben:

Do you support frank sexual information as part of AIDS awareness, as well as giving out free condoms to make sure people have them available? Yes, or No?

[Jon Miller]

Ben, the issue is that currently condoms are being removed from the ABC formula.

This is obviously a bad thing.

JM

[Tattila the Hun]

Originally posted by GePap
CONDOMS.

But...

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.


GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
My AB strategy? Where have I said that the condoms are not part of the success in Uganda.

From the article
Uganda's evangelicals preach that abstinence is the only way to halt the spread of the virus.

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
So I think I'll take Uganda's approach.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As for your numbers, if you note, they are even lower the Loinburger's and would seem to put the lie that the Uganda numbers are at all elevated from previous periods. That is what I found significant, along with the higher Botswana numbers.

From the article
Aids activists and development officials point to the 130,000 Ugandans infected with HIV last year alone - up from 70,000 in 2002 - and say the recent obsession with abstinence is handicapping the country's once-successful fight against the virus.

The numbers you're playing with are the percentage of Ugandans infected with HIV, which you're foolishly comparing to the percentage of Botwanans infected with HIV. The relevant numbers are the ones I've (re-)quoted.

[MRT144]

ben, do you think condoms are a last resort simply because the acronym is in alphabetical order?

[Darius871]

I blame the children.

[Combat Ingrid]

Praise the Lord!

[Gibsie]

In countries where up to a third of everyone has HIV, anyone who does not think that condoms should be an integral part of the birth control policy is a freaking moron. Please, keep the churches telling everoyne to be abstinent and faithful, but where sex education is concerned, educating people about how to prevent the spread of STD's during sex is pretty damn central.

[Spiffor]

Botswana is a fairly incredible case actually. It's an oddity, and it's far from being par of the course in Africa.

Botswana is probably the African country where the average person is the richest. Rich diamond deposits have been discovered after independence, and the wealth from these deposits benefits pretty much all the Botswanese (except Bushmen).

Nobody really understands why the anti-AIDS programmes are such a failure in Botswana. It's not for lack of money (anti-AIDS ads are everywhere, and the population can understand them). Comparatively to the rest of Africa, it's not for lack of education. It's really a mystery.

OTOH, the Ugandese ABC programme has been one of the best success stories wrt AIDS in Africa. The balance between the three elements really helped, both in order to shape a less promiscuous culture, and in making promiscuous behaviours less risky.
However, promiscuous behaviour hasn't entirely disappeared, far from it (and it ain't going to disappear anytime soon), and the current dogmatism is shattering what has made it a success.
Not only are the promiscuous behaviours going to be more dangerous, but those who had several partners in their lives (which is possible in a non-promiscuous way: polygamous families, widows, divorcees, people who experienced years before when they were young) are at a serious risk and present a risk to their partners.