F-16s to Iran or Cuba

[Zkribbler]

Hey, we beat the snot out of Grenada and Panama, didn't we?!

[MRT144]

agathon cant subdue a 3rd rate whore. what next?

[Kidlicious]

Honestly, why do you guys get all pissy about this stuff?

[Zkribbler]

Sayin' we can't beat up a third-rate nation...the idea!

We spend more on the military that the rest of the world put together, so on some occasions we do actually win (if we launch a sneak attack and take 'em by surprise).

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Sayin' we can't beat up a third-rate nation...the idea!

We spend more on the military that the rest of the world put together, so on some occasions we do actually win (if we launch a sneak attack and take 'em by surprise).

And it's money that is just being thrown away.

Sure, it's possible to reduce a country to a smoking ruin and beat it in battle, but then what do you do? You can't occupy it if the people there don't want you, and if you can't occupy it, you can't really force it to do anything without committing mass crimes against humanity.

This applies to the US and pretty much any other country that wants to invade somewhere else. It doesn't work any more. The citizens of developed nations are no longer willing to pay the price for wars that don't have anything to do with national survival.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Sayin' we can't beat up a third-rate nation...the idea!

We spend more on the military that the rest of the world put together, so on some occasions we do actually win (if we launch a sneak attack and take 'em by surprise).

Maybe we can beat up some little countries, but we can't prevent people like Chavez coming to power.

Personally I don't think Chavez is an evil dictator, but a lot of people do just because he uses anti-US rhetoric. But nothing he says fires me up like it does others.

[Thorgal]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Thurgol, anyone who claims the Eurofighter is anything other then mediocre doesn't know much about air planes. The Eurofighter is an all around under performer which took something like 20 years between design to production so that it was obsolete before the first one rolled off of the production line.

How predictable. And from somebody who doesnt even know the difference beetwen an F-16 and an F-15. Amusing.

Lets see, Ierdon. The YF-22 development began in 1981 they selected the YF-22 to be the next USA fighter in 1986. The F-22 is not in service yet so if you can count it is 2006-1981=25 years and counting.

The Eurofighter program began in 1983 with the EAP prototype development, however the Eurofighter design began as late as 1987 based on the EAP experiences but being a TOTALLY different aircraft. The Eurofighter is in service since two years ago so 2004-1983=21 or to be more exact 2004-1987=17. OTOH it is normal in both cases, planes are a bit more complicated to build than cars, not if you know...

About the Eurofighter, it was designed and evaluated respecting advanced versions of F-15 and F-16 and has destroyed the F-15 systematically in simulations and real military exercises. It is something expectable since the Typhoon is a generation more advanced.

Here you can see an Eurofighter shooting down a couple of F-15s :

http://news.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005

[Harry Tuttle]

Two words: Supercruise and stealth.

The F-22 can fly faster longer, has a larger payload, and has stealth.

Oh, and it's not a rehash of old airframes either.

http://www.ausairpower.net/typhoon.html

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Thorgal

How predictable. And from somebody who doesnt even know the difference beetwen an F-16 and an F-15. Amusing.

I know very well what the difference between an F-16 and an F-15 is. My mistake was I briefly looked at the thread title and thought it said F-15 instead of F-16. Also the Eurofighter was at least 50% based on the far older French made Rafale so the fact that it took 20 years to complete an aircraft which was already 50% designed says something about the inefficencies of the Eurofighter project.

In any event the comparision between the Eurofighter and the F-22 has been done numerous times here and in the media. The facts are the F-22 has super-sonic cruise while the Eurofighter doesn't, the F-22 is a stealth plane while the Eurofighter isn't (meaning our Euro friends won't see the F-22 on radar), the pilot has more control of the F-22 (can turn fast, go fast, fly higher, turn tighter... you name and the F-22 pwns the Eurofighter), the F-22 has much better avionics so it can see & track (or even fire upon) targets which the Eurofighter doesn't even know is there, signitures are reduced compared to the Eurofighter (meaning heat, noise, turbulence which can aid enemies in seeing the aircraft), F-22 has thrust vectoring while the Eurofighter doesn't. The list just goes on and on.

Face it. The F-22 wins because the F-22 would kill the Eurofighter long before the Eurofighter even knew it was there. It is just a superior aircraft.

[Unspeakable Horror]

Chavez said he was going to sell the planes as an answer to the US breaking the treaty to supply Venezuela with replacements and all the stuff needed for the planes and also the recent accusations of being pro Iran, "axis of evil" propaganda, etc.

IMO, nothing will happen, as usual.

[Dinner]

OK, the Eurofighter can just barely maintain a super cruise without using the after burner (though it will need to fire the after burner to get to super-sonic speeds while the F-22 won't). In the end there really isn't a comparison. The F-22 is just that much better.

One can argue about value for the money; that the Eurofighter does pretty good on VW style money while the F-22 is a Ferrari. That comparison would be true but at the end of the day the Ferrari is just a higher performing car just as the F-22 is a higher performing air plane.

[Unspeakable Horror]

Originally posted by pchang
The US should sue in world court. If the US wins, then it can legally seize some Venezuelan assets as compensation.

Hard to do when the US doesn´t recognize it´s existance

[Dinner]

From another thread on the endless F-22 vs Eurofighter debate:

Thrust to weight advantages (1,27 for F-22 vs. 1,18 for Typhoon)

There is an armament issue as well. The F/A-22 has a 20mm Vulcan gatling type weapon that fires at a higher rate, giving the probability of and number of rounds on target ratio advantage to the Raptor. The final throw weight of the rounds that hit the opponent is usually in the advantage column of the Vulcan as well. BTW... The British have announced that they want to take the guns off the Typhoon, and even if they don't, they won't train on them, which is a mistake, as the 27mm Mauser is one of the finest aerial weapons out there.

Finally, thrust vectoring gives the F/A-22 the distinct advantage. The F/A-22 can outmaneuver any other production fighter out there right now, including the SU's, which slouch not. The ability to turn and juke better than your opponent makes it a race between two different classes of aircraft. The future users of the Eurofighter are looking to replace large 2nd and 3rd generation aircraft in the multi-role category. The Typhoon is definitely superior to the F-4's, F.3's. F-104's, and even the F-16's in the current European inventory of air-air fighters which it will be replacing. There are also reports of Typhoon pilots getting the jump of F-15 Eagles in UK training areas. It should outclass any other fighter designed and put into service 30 or more years prior to it.

It won't win against the first 5th generation fighter to be put into service, unless there is a serious pilot or tactical advantage influenced by some outside issue or overwhelming numbers. It probably won't ever be in a position to do so either, but you never know. We have had standoffs with F-14's versus F-14's before that we were'nt expecting.

This opinion of the results of studied is backed by a DERA study (prior to the splitup to Qinetiq and DSTL) that gives odds of fighter-on-fighter outcomes with a series of fighters matched against an SU-35 type. The Typhoon was given a 4.5 to 1 advantage while the F/A-22 has a 10.1 to 1 advantage. This shows that the F/A-22 has the clear advantage.
one source (others available offline) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...ghter_aircraft

[Dinner]

Interesting picture displaying exactly how inferior the radar systems on the Eurofighter are compared to the radar systems of the F-22. It does help that the F-22 is stealth while the Eurofighter isn't.

It really doesn't matter how the F-22 is fast, how thrust vectoring gives it much better manuverability, or any of that other stuff. This diagram shows exactly why it doesn't matter. Because our Eurofighter friend will be toast long before he even knows an enemy is there.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Unspeakable Horror

Hard to do when the US doesn´t recognize it´s existance

But the US does. It simple demanded to get an exemption from "World Court" juristiction.

Basically the US just demanded complete immunity or they'd kill the court off via diplomatic channals.