Hirsi Ali becoming a yank - peace in Holland

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by germanos
As I type I'm listening to the debate in parliament.

The view of Rita Verdonk (and/or the ministry) is that Ayaan's citizenship has never been (from a legal point of view) GRANTED. (Given the false name and date of birth)

It's a general principle that citizenship or residency rights predicated on falsehoods can be stripped at any time.

The fact that her own party knew about this and didn't act until the public found out, despite the fact that they talk big on tough immigration, makes them a bunch of hypocrites, and makes Ms Ali (or whatever her name is) more of an idiot for joining them.

[Robert]

Hirsi Ali never LOST her dutch nationality since she never got it.
She gave up a false personality, this false personality got the dutch nationality. The false personality now apprantly doesn't exist, so Hirsi Ali is not dutch.

Of course we should give her the dutch nationality asap anyway because she did a lot for our nation. There are special routes for people who did a special job or have a special quality to become dutch. there shouldn't be a problem at all there. Though it would be insane if a false identification would give someone a dutch nationality. For sure since that would leave openings for all others who come into our country by a false nationality.

[Sandman]

She's an atheist.

I'm sure she'll get a warm welcome in America.

[Victor Galis]

Ok, so how many of you are feeling sorry for her, but favor taking a tough line against illegal immigrants in the US? Come on, I know we have hypocrites among us.

[Pekka]

I think they should allow her to stay, but what can you do.. they said she can't so he can't. And if people would stand up for her, people would get offended and maybe an embassy or two would burn. What? It's facts.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos
Lord of the Mark: Remember that I'm posting Ms. Verdonks point of view (Minister of Immigration for the VVD)

I fully understand why asylum seekers find it neccesary to use fake names, fake dates of birth and even fake stories to increase there chances of getting asylum granted and/or to make sure they effectifly escape the horrors that haunt them.

Or to make sure they can finish their education they worked 4 and a half years for, coming here as a 12 year old.

lying to stay in the country and finish your schooling is hardly the same as lying to keep people from tracking you down and killing you. Maybe its just me.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


It's a general principle that citizenship or residency rights predicated on falsehoods can be stripped at any time.

Falsehoods are one thing, Im not sure i buy that the name thing is really a falsehood. There were plenty of american immigrants who took new names at Ellis Island, to the point where we have lots of jokes about it

("how did you end up with the name Finegold? I thought they were asking me why I came to America")

I presume you have had similar experiences in Canada.

AFAICT Somali naming practices arent all that set in stone. She didnt change her name to get into the NL - she would have got in just as well with her "right" name. Its not that she was trying to hide a past that the immigration authorities would have been concerned about.

Perhaps she was in technical violation, and the NL had no choice. I dont know NL law or precedent well enough to say.

But from what I can gather she is no hypocrite, and she will of course be welcome in the US.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman
She's an atheist.

I'm sure she'll get a warm welcome in America.

Plenty of atheists in America. Including strong supporters of the WOT, like Christopher Hitchens.

The above quote gives the impression youve got a pretty odd idea of what its like in America.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Plenty of atheists in America. Including strong supporters of the WOT, like Christopher Hitchens.

The above quote gives the impression youve got a pretty odd idea of what its like in America.

How many atheist congressmen or senators are there? It's not a rhetorical question. I honestly have no idea.

[Arrian]

I'd wager zero, or close to it.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sandman


How many atheist congressmen or senators are there? It's not a rhetorical question. I honestly have no idea.

as opposed to say, agnostic congressmen? Unitarian congressmen whose definition of God would not be considered "theist" in a poly debate? I honestly have no idea.

There are certainly several states where an avowed non-religionist could be elected, and quite a number of house districts. Some of them are probably represented by folks who are at least nominal members of some church or synagogue, simply cause so many Americans, even "secular" americans, are nominal members of churches and synagogues - and there really arent many atheists here. (10% of the pop doesnt believe in "God" in response to surveys, and probably most of those would call themselves agnostics - or are far lefties like Che, who wouldnt get elected anyway)

But I dont think Ms Ali came here with the expectation of getting elected to congress.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
I'd wager zero, or close to it.

-Arrian

I doubt, say, Bernie Saunders is any kind of "religionist" - but he probably calls himself an agnostic, not an atheist I suppose. Who really cares?

[Arrian]

He said atheist. I gave a top-of-my-head, gut-level response.

Do I care? Not really, no. I do care about the seperation of church and state, but I don't think having atheists in congress is critical.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

According to Congress.org there are 12 congressmen who list no religion, and 1 (Mark Udall of Colorado) who list not affiliated.


OTOH Bernie Sanders, for example, lists himself as Jewish. Which of course doesnt tell you whether or not he beleive in God.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Actually, son, yes I did.

If your data are to be belived, it's actually me that should call you my unknown son - there was that pretty canadian girl I met back in 79

The fact that she told somebody about it 4 years ago doesn't absolve her of the crime. You lie on a refugee claim, you get deported. That day, next month or 30 years later. Countries have no compunction about stripping citizenship from anybody found to have lied in order to immigrate.

She's either an idiot for lying, or the dutch immigration system sucks for refugees.

Refugees are often scared like hell, accustomed to lie for their life to officials - it's actually a known fact that people fleeing from totaltarian systems don't trust police etc in their new countries.

If you mean ordinary immigrants, it's of course stupid to lie, but please give refugees some kind of slack.