Hirsi Ali becoming a yank - peace in Holland

[Last Conformist]

It should be considered a serious issue.

[Colon™]

I can't say I feel very comfortable about this situation. On the one hand I do not agree with her views and I also feel that the law is the law. On the other hand, it's hard to argue she's been a bad Dutch citizen, considering she was elected to MP. She's obviously strong-willed and intelligent, and I feel to see why any immigration policy should keep people like her out.

[pchang]

How do you feel

about the court ordering you to move out of neighborhood because your neighbors are worried about death threats against you?

[Arrian]

That part is pretty scary.

-Arrian

[Last Conformist]

Re: How do you feel

Originally posted by pchang
about the court ordering you to move out of neighborhood because your neighbors are worried about death threats against you?

That part is rather messed up, yes.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by DanS
What kind of person is she? Is she quality? Or is she a blowhard?

She's basically a right-wing islamophobic Michael Moore. She should fit right in in Washington...

Tehcnically she lost her residence due to threat posed to neghbors, so driven out is essentially accurate.

No she's not, those things are not related. She lost her citizenship because she lied on her application. As much as I disagree with these laws myself, they are still the laws of this country and can hardly be ignored because she's such a special person. And that law was largely written by her own party, they're very tough on immigration. She's always supported the very policies that are now getting her in trouble.

She's tossed out of her appartment because the security services that she required are a burden on the other people who live in the same building as her -- which a violation of the contracts those people have with their landlord (they did NOT feel threatened, or maybe they did but that wasn't the point on which they won their court case). This is a completely seperate issue, looking at this issue alone she can continue to live in the Netherlands just fine, just not in that specific building (and she's moved around a million times in the last few years, mostly because SHE wasn't happy with the many different places that the security services offered her, so she herself is a big part of that problem).

that was known 4 years ago.

Which just shows you the utter incompetence and hypocrisy of our current administration, it took them that long to catch up...

[DanS]

I don't know what your perception of Washington is, but Michael Moore doesn't fit in well here (he couldn't get a good crowd if he came) and there's little Islamaphobia.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Locutus
No she's not, those things are not related. She lost her citizenship because she lied on her application.

I said as much.

As much as I disagree with these laws myself, they are still the laws of this country and can hardly be ignored because she's such a special person. And that law was largely written by her own party, they're very tough on immigration. She's always supported the very policies that are now getting her in trouble.

I have no problem with that part as the law is the law.

She's tossed out of her appartment because the security services that she required are a burden on the other people who live in the same building as her -- which a violation of the contracts those people have with their landlord (they did NOT feel threatened, or maybe they did but that wasn't the point on which they won their court case). This is a completely seperate issue, looking at this issue alone she can continue to live in the Netherlands just fine, just not in that specific building (and she's moved around a million times in the last few years, mostly because SHE wasn't happy with the many different places that the security services offered her, so she herself is a big part of that problem).

This is the problem. Regardless of her own volition to move as she saw fit, a court ordering someone to vacate their premises for fear that others may be harmed due to no act of their own causes me great concern (or even the presumptive reason you give that others contracts were violated as a consequence of required security details.) It is driving someone out of their residence regardless of whether that means she was refused residence in any other part of the county. The original poster making that assertion, Cockney, gave no indication he was talking about being evicted from country or merely local residence. She was most definetely evicted for what most rational people consider dubious reasons at best. Hence driven out is apt.

Furthermore if I read the article correctly her citizenship is not yet revoked merely a supposition that

Dutch Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk said on Monday that in the light of the programme and other facts, the MP's citizenship was unlikely to be valid.

her citizenship is in jeopardy. So at present the only state applied force has been her residential eviction from the city of The Hague.

edit - strike that last comment I see later on Tuesday her citizenship was indeed revoked.

[Pekka]

If she gets the boot, I see a SHIP full of people who should also get the boot. HMm, say, those who are ready to hunt her down and stuff?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Locutus

She's tossed out of her appartment because the security services that she required are a burden on the other people who live in the same building as her -- which a violation of the contracts those people have with their landlord (they did NOT feel threatened, or maybe they did but that wasn't the point on which they won their court case). This is a completely seperate issue, looking at this issue alone she can continue to live in the Netherlands just fine, just not in that specific building (and she's moved around a million times in the last few years, mostly because SHE wasn't happy with the many different places that the security services offered her, so she herself is a big part of that problem).

So she doesn't feel safe and moves around a million time (that must be several times pr hour) and that is a problem ? The neighbours think it's a violation of their contracts that their new neighbour is a politician that needs protection ? The courts descide it is so - real nice country to live in. Oh, she is free to move to another place - where I guess that the neighbours will be just as annoyed and would claim that their contracts has been violated.

Which just shows you the utter incompetence and hypocrisy of our current administration, it took them that long to catch up...

Are you saying that Holland is some kind of banana republic where you not even can trust those that checks those people you can vote for ?

[lord of the mark]

Ms Ali's statement

"I came to Holland in the summer of 1992 because I wanted to be able to determine my own future. I didn’t want to be forced into a destiny that other people had chosen for me, so I opted for the protection of the rule of law. Here in Holland, I found freedom and opportunities, and I took those opportunities to speak out against religious terror.

In January 2003, at the invitation of the VVD party, I became a member of parliament. I accepted the VVD’s invitation on the condition that I would be the party’s spokesman for the emancipation of women and the integration of immigrants.

What exactly did I want to achieve?

First of all I wanted to put the oppression of immigrant women -- especially Muslim women – squarely on the Dutch political agenda. Second, I wanted Holland to pay attention to the specific cultural and religious issues that were holding back many ethnic minorities, instead of always taking a one-sided approach that focused only on their socio-economic circumstances. Lastly, I wanted politicians to grasp the fact that major aspects of Islamic doctrine and tradition, as practiced today, are incompatible with the open society.

Now I have to ask myself, have I accomplished that task?

I have stumbled often in my political career. It has sometimes been frustrating and slow. However, I am completely certain that I have, in my own way, succeeded in contributing to the debate. Issues related to Islam – such as impediments to free speech; refusal of the separation of Church and State; widespread domestic violence; honor killings; the repudiation of wives; and Islam’s failure to condemn genital mutilation -- these subjects can no longer be swept under the carpet in our country’s capital. Some of the measures that this government has begun taking give me satisfaction. Many illusions of how easy it will be to establish a multicultural society have disappeared forever. We are now more realistic and more open in this debate, and I am proud to have contributed to that process.

Meanwhile, the ideas which I espouse have begun spreading to other countries. In recent years I have given speeches and attended debates in many European countries and in the United States. For months now, I have felt that I needed to make a decision: should I go on in Dutch politics, or should I now transfer my ideas to an international forum?

In the fall of 2005 I told Gerrit Zalm and Jozias van Aartsen, the leaders of the VVD, that I would not be a candidate for the parliamentary elections in 2007. I had decided to opt for a more international platform, because I wanted to contribute to the international debate on the emancipation of Muslim women and the complex relationship between Islam and the West.

Now that I am announcing that I will resign from Dutch politics, I would like to thank the members of the VVD for my years in parliament – to thank them for inviting me to stand for parliament, and -- perhaps more importantly -- for putting up with me while I was there, for this has been in many ways a rough ride for us all. I want to thank my other colleagues here in parliament for their help, although some of our debates have been sharp. (Femke Halsema, thank you especially for that!). I would also like to thank the 30,758 people who in January 2003 trusted their preference vote to a newcomer.

But why am I not remaining in parliament for my full term, until next year’s election? Why, after only three and a half years, have I decided to resign from the Lower Chamber?

It is common knowledge that threats against my life began building up ever since I first talked about Islam publicly, in the spring of 2002. Months before I even entered politics, my freedom of movement was greatly curtailed, and that became worse after Theo van Gogh was murdered in 2004. I have been obliged to move house so many times I have lost count. The direct cause for the ending of my membership in parliament is that on April 27 of this year, a Dutch court ruled that I must once again leave my home, because my neighbors filed a complaint that they could not feel safe living next to me. The Dutch government will appeal this verdict and I grateful for that, because how on earth will other people whose lives are threatened manage to find a place to stay if this verdict is allowed to rest? However, this appeal does not alter my situation: I have to leave my apartment by the end of August.

Another reason for my departure is the discussion that has arisen from a TV program, The Holy Ayaan, which was aired on May 11. This program centered on two issues: the story that I told when I was applying for asylum here in Holland, and questions about my forced marriage.

I have been very open about the fact that when I applied for asylum in the Netherlands in 1992, I did so under a false name and with a fabricated story. In 2002, I spoke on national television about the conditions of my arrival, and I said then that I fabricated a story in order to be able to receive asylum here. Since that TV program I have repeated this dozens of times, in Dutch and international media. Many times I have truthfully named my father and given my correct date of birth. (You will find a selection of these articles in the press folder). I also informed the VVD leadership and members of this fact when I was invited to stand for parliament.

I have said many times that I am not proud that I lied when I sought asylum in the Netherlands. It was wrong to do so. I did it because I felt I had no choice. I was frightened that if I simply said I was fleeing a forced marriage, I would be sent back to my family. And I was frightened that if I gave my real name, my clan would hunt me down and find me. So I chose a name that I thought I could disappear with – the real name of my grandfather, who was given the birth-name Ali. I claimed that my name was Ayaan Hirsi Ali, although I should have said it was Ayaan Hirsi Magan.

You probably are wondering, what is my real name?

I am Ayaan, the daughter of Hirsi, who is the son of a man who took the name of Magan. Magan was the son of Isse, who was the son of Guleid, who was the son of Ali. He was the son of Wai’ays, who was the son of Muhammad. He was the son of Ali, who was the son of Umar. Umar was the son of Osman, who was the son of Mahamud. This is my clan, and therefore, in Somalia, this is my name: Ayaan Hirsi Magan Isse Guleid Ali Wai’ays Muhammad Ali Umar Osman Mahamud.

Following the May 11 television broadcast, legal questions have been raised about my naturalization as a Dutch citizen. Minister Verdonk has written to me saying that my passport will be annulled, because it was issued to a person who does not hold my real name. I am not at liberty to discuss the legal issues in this case.

Now for the questions about my forced marriage. Last week’s TV program cast doubt on my credibility in that respect, and the final conclusion of the documentary is that all this is terribly complicated. Let me tell you, it’s not so complex. The allegations that I willingly married my distant cousin, and was present at the wedding ceremony, are simply untrue. This man arrived in Nairobi from Canada, asked my father for one of his five daughters, and my father gave him me. I can assure you my father is not a man who takes no for an answer. Still, I refused to attend the formal ceremony, and I was married regardless. Then, on my way to Canada -- during a stopover in Germany -- I traveled to the Netherlands and asked for asylum here. In all simplicity this is what happened, nothing more and nothing less. For those who are interested in the intimate details of my transition from a pre-modern society to a modern one, and how I came to love what the West stands for, please read my memoir, which is due to be published this fall.

To return to the present day, may I say that it is difficult to live with so many threats on your life and such a level of police protection. It is difficult to work as a parliamentarian if you have nowhere to live. All that is difficult, but not impossible. It has become impossible since last night, when Minister Verdonk informed me that she would strip me of my Dutch citizenship.

I am therefore preparing to leave Holland. But the questions for our society remain. The future of Islam in our country; the subjugation of women in Islamic culture; the integration of the many Muslims in the West: it is self-deceit to imagine that these issues will disappear.

I will continue to ask uncomfortable questions, despite the obvious resistance that they elicit. I feel that I should help other people to live in freedom, as many people have helped me. I personally have gone through a long and sometimes painful process of personal growth in this country. It began with learning to tell the truth to myself, and then the truth about myself: I strive now to also tell the truth about society as I see it.

That transition from becoming a member of a clan to becoming a citizen in an open society is what public service has come to mean for me. Only clear thinking and strong action can lead to real change, and free many people within our society from the mental cage of submission. The idea that I can contribute to their freedom, whether in the Netherlands or in another country, gives me deep satisfaction.

Ladies and Gentlemen, as of today, I resign from Parliament. I regret that I will be leaving the Netherlands, the country which has given me so many opportunities and enriched my life, but I am glad that I will be able to continue my work. I will go on. "



Welcome to America, Ms. Ali.

[C0ckney]

Originally posted by BlackCat
Damn, LOTM, you beat me on that - KH apparently didn't read it all.

that's the problem with bolding a few bits of an article, it just encourages people to make stupid statesments based on them.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Welcome to America, Ms. Ali.

And goodbye from europe - fortunatedly we have a couple of courageous danish muslims that can pick up the torch, though not quite in the same class.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by C0ckney


that's the problem with bolding a few bits of an article, it just encourages people to make stupid statesments based on them.

Yeah, but I couldn't have bolded the whole darn piece , and I didn't expect KH to join since it mostly is an european thread (if I had expected that, I would of course have given him reading guidance )

[germanos]

All this is hilarious

There are various issues at hand. Firstly: Ayaan Hirsi Magan herself.

Her citizenship is strictly speaking not revoked. Technically speaking, the citizenshipship was granted to a women named Ayaan Hirsi Ali, born on date X. The person in question bearing that passport is Ayaan Hirsi Magan, born on date Y.
This is the case that has been brought forward by the Dutch Minister of Immigration Rita Verdonk, fellow member of the Liberal Party (VVD).

The case brought to court by her fellow tennants (I'm assuming it's rented appartments here, allthough it could be that the appartments are for sale actually), resulting in the verdict for Ayaan to leave her residence, is a bit larger then presented here: after the murder of cineast Theo van Gogh Ayaan went into hiding, and after a long time the State brought her to said appartement. The other tennants were suddenly confronted with Ayaan living there and all consequences her prescence caused.
It's NOT the case that Ayaan has been living there for years BEFORE all the mess started. I can very well understand her neighbours were not very happy by her moving in, and apparently the judge found their greifs well founded.

There is (at least) one side issue at hand.
Iron Rita (minister of segregation for some) had a huge quarrel with parliament and a considerable part of society over a girl from Kososo, who had fled the troubles there some odd five years ago with her parents, applied for asylum which was turned down about half a year ago. The girl went to secondary school here and was about to do her final exams in this coming month. She was not allowed to do so as, according to the ministry of immigration, she could take the equivalent final tests in Kosovo itself. There was a lengthy legal battle over whether the minister was in her right to send the girl back to Kosovo, which the minister won, but the big row was offcourse if the minister should have not allowed to let the girl finish her exams and THEN deport het back to Kososvo.
With this in mind, the minister no doubt felt she could not grant Ayaan leniency, when she stood up so strong to a 16-year old.

I'm ROFLFMAO for all this upheavel, which is a tempest in a cup of water, fed by the rediculous xenophobia that is rampant in the Netherlands, not in the least by the VVD which has (succesfully) tried to pick up the votes left by Pim Fortuyn by putting forward Rita Verdonk and Ayaan Hirsi ????? as their main spokeswomen to expel illigal immigrants (read fake asylum-seakers).

The VVD did fall on its own sword.