Hirsi Ali becoming a yank - peace in Holland

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos
All this is hilarious

There are various issues at hand. Firstly: Ayaan Hirsi Magan herself.

Her citizenship is strictly speaking not revoked. Technically speaking, the citizenshipship was granted to a women named Ayaan Hirsi Ali, born on date X. The person in question bearing that passport is Ayaan Hirsi Magan, born on date Y.

"And I was frightened that if I gave my real name, my clan would hunt me down and find me. So I chose a name that I thought I could disappear with – the real name of my grandfather, who was given the birth-name Ali. I claimed that my name was Ayaan Hirsi Ali, although I should have said it was Ayaan Hirsi Magan. "

From the facts that she has brought forward, it does not seem to me that she is a hypocrite. But then Im not familiar with each and every asylum case she has weighed in on. It does strike me that Kosovo, patrolled these last 7 years by UN troops, is a far safer place than Somalia, esp comparing the case to someone whos targeted by a Somali clan.

Im of course not at all familiar with Ms Verdonk. From what I can gather much of the VVD is not happy with her decision in this instance.

[germanos]

Lord of the Mark: Remember that I'm posting Ms. Verdonks point of view (Minister of Immigration for the VVD)

I fully understand why asylum seekers find it neccesary to use fake names, fake dates of birth and even fake stories to increase there chances of getting asylum granted and/or to make sure they effectifly escape the horrors that haunt them.

Or to make sure they can finish their education they worked 4 and a half years for, coming here as a 12 year old.

[Colon™]

Verdonk is a *****.

[Shi Huangdi]

Hrisi Ali was a victim of Female Genital Mutilation and made it her mission to tell the truth about Islamic treatment of women.

Welcome to the United States, Hrisi.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Hrisi Ali was a victim of Female Genital Mutilation and made it her mission to tell the truth about Islamic treatment of women.

Welcome to the United States, Hrisi.

Female Genital Mutilation is more an African tradition then a Muslim one

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by germanos
All this is hilarious

The case brought to court by her fellow tennants (I'm assuming it's rented appartments here, allthough it could be that the appartments are for sale actually), resulting in the verdict for Ayaan to leave her residence, is a bit larger then presented here: after the murder of cineast Theo van Gogh Ayaan went into hiding, and after a long time the State brought her to said appartement. The other tennants were suddenly confronted with Ayaan living there and all consequences her prescence caused.
It's NOT the case that Ayaan has been living there for years BEFORE all the mess started. I can very well understand her neighbours were not very happy by her moving in, and apparently the judge found their greifs well founded.

Yeah, it's a very hilarious issue. Politicians of course doesn't have the right to live amongst common people - especially if they are threathened.

I don't care a bit if politicians are opposed harshly by words, but I for certain do if they are threathened on their life. It's pretty sick that her neighbours doesn't dare to live next door to her. Do they not realize that it's their best protection that they actually do live there ?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by DanS
I don't know what your perception of Washington is, but Michael Moore doesn't fit in well here

That's mostly because his views are the polar opposite of those the current administration. If he held the same views as them I bet he'd fit right in. Manipulating facts to fit his propaganda, misrepresenting quotes to slander people, blatant attention whoring -- that's just the sort of stuff the Bush administration loves to do, they're just a little better at it.

I agree with 90% of Michael Moore views, but the fact that he holds them aren't helping their case...

and there's little Islamaphobia.

I would disagree with that, and so would almost the entire Islamic community worldwide. And even if that's not the intent, perception is very important in these matters. But that's for a different discussion...

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
This is the problem. Regardless of her own volition to move as she saw fit, a court ordering someone to vacate their premises for fear that others may be harmed due to no act of their own causes me great concern (or even the presumptive reason you give that others contracts were violated as a consequence of required security details.) It is driving someone out of their residence regardless of whether that means she was refused residence in any other part of the county. The original poster making that assertion, Cockney, gave no indication he was talking about being evicted from country or merely local residence. She was most definetely evicted for what most rational people consider dubious reasons at best. Hence driven out is apt.

She was evicted by a court because she was violating the rules of conduct at the place of her residency, which is against Dutch law. If you think Dutch law is dubious, it's a good thing you don't live here.

I don't know the details of the situation, but I for one wouldn't want security guards running around in my hallway 24-7 either, making a lot of noise, forcing me and my visitors to ID myself whenever I want to enter my own building and generally causing a lot of disturbance. I don't know if those are exactly the things that were going on, but I imagine they must have been and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (or whatever her name is) and her security guards must have been very unaccommodating in finding alternative solutions that were less intrusive for the neighbours as well, otherwise a judge in the Netherlands would never kick someone out of their appartment -- Dutch law is fairly protective of tenants in this regard (and any other for that matter).

Furthermore if I read the article correctly her citizenship is not yet revoked merely a supposition that

It's been revoked. Some members of parliament want to reverse that decision, or at least reapply her for citizenship with the correct personalia ASAP, but right now she's no longer officially a Dutch citizen (though she's been reverted to official refugee status, which means she doesn't have to leave the country... yet).

So at present the only state applied force has been her residential eviction from the city of The Hague.

That doesn't go in effect until August 28. And in the Netherlands we have a system of seperation of power that actually works (much in contrast to the US in my admittedly somewhat limited experience), so here court decisions and Minister of Immigration decisions are completely seperate things. This is not a third world country where government is trying to eliminate a political dissident, as you seem to be implying. It's a mere coincidence that these things are an issue at the same time. Well, sort of anyway, that court case has been making headlines for months now. But the verdict in that case and the retraction of Alaan's citizenship coinciding is not some kind of deliberate plot.

[quote]

Originally posted by BlackCat
So she doesn't feel safe and moves around a million time (that must be several times pr hour) and that is a problem ?

She didn't move around because she didn't feel safe (quite the opposite, she was probably safer in the past), but because her previous places of residence weren't luxurious enough for her. She had a point in at least some of those cases (she's lived on army bases and in prisons at times), but she's making an awful lot of demands for someone who's security concerns are costing Dutch tax payers a lot of money -- while she's not even doing her job as MP very well, she's too busy doing TV performances, giving lectures, writing books and doing other activist work to attend sessions in parliament and do the other work MPs should be doing. She's basically a big attention whore a la Michael Moore, and while I'm fine with the Dutch tax payer having to pay for her security that she needs as a result of that attention whoring, she could be a little more accomodating about the preconditions.

The neighbours think it's a violation of their contracts that their new neighbour is a politician that needs protection ?

So because someone needs a lot of security her neighbours are not entitled to a normal life and should suffer endlessly? The Netherlands is thankfully a civilized country where you're not allowed to more than a certain amount of disturbance to other people's lifes. Getting a Dutch judge to decide that someone is causing enough trouble to be evicted is NOT easy, so whatever was going on there must've been pretty bad. There's no reason in the world why security services can't put her in a more isolated location (that's not an army base or prison) where the security measures are less of a burden to the rest of the neighbourhood...

Oh, she is free to move to another place - where I guess that the neighbours will be just as annoyed and would claim that their contracts has been violated.

From what I know (which frankly isn't a whole lot as obviously details of where she lives are kept private for security reasons), she lives in an appartment building, where people live right on top of each other. Shouldn't be that hard to find a more isolated residence -- like a farm in the countryside for example. We have plenty of those to go around and they're a lot easier to keep safe.

Are you saying that Holland is some kind of banana republic where you not even can trust those that checks those people you can vote for ?

Basically, yes. The current government are a bunch of huge screw-ups like you wouldn't believe. Both the political leaders and the civil servants working under them. We pretty much have a new scandal involving fraud, leaking of confidential information, incompetance, etc every week these days: justice, secret services, education, health, immigration-- all those departments have been involved in such scandals this year alone. The solution is usually to move the affected individuals to different departments rather than firing them, so they can screw up there as well.

[germanos]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Yeah, it's a very hilarious issue. Politicians of course doesn't have the right to live amongst common people - especially if they are threathened.

I don't care a bit if politicians are opposed harshly by words, but I for certain do if they are threathened on their life. It's pretty sick that her neighbours doesn't dare to live next door to her. Do they not realize that it's their best protection that they actually do live there ?

Easy for you to say.
Do you have any idea to what her neighbours have to put up with?

I don't, but I can very well imagine:
- constant checks when you want to enter your own appartment block.
- checks by the National Security Agency on anybody wanting to visit you.
- checks on the parents of the friends of your children who want to come over to play.
- etc.

I can very well imagine one would find such an infringement of your personal liberty harrasment.

An interesting case will be if Ayaan will be actually permitted to enter the US. As far as I understand she is a person without identity at the moment. How will the US immigration service deal with this?

[DanS]

That's mostly because his views are the polar opposite of those the current administration.

It's clear that you don't have a very good sense of Washington and US politics.

I just wanted to know whether if you disregarded Ali's political views, she would be an asset to the country and to Washington or an unbearable bore.

[germanos]

Originally posted by DanS


Weird story about how she is coming to live in the States.

What kind of person is she? Is she quality? Or is she a blowhard?

I just wanted to know whether if you disregarded Ali's political views, she would be an asset to the country and to Washington or an unbearable bore.

Could you explain the term blowhard to me?

I'm afraid she is one


She 's an intelligent women no doubt, but I'm afraid she is strongly pushing a very personal agenda. (which is not necesarrily a bad thing)

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Locutus

I agree with 90% of Michael Moore views, but the fact that he holds them aren't helping their case...

That actually scares me a bit - who, claming that they are sane, would ever support MM ????


I would disagree with that, and so would almost the entire Islamic community worldwide. And even if that's not the intent, perception is very important in these matters. But that's for a different discussion...

She was evicted by a court because she was violating the rules of conduct at the place of her residency, which is against Dutch law. If you think Dutch law is dubious, it's a good thing you don't live here.

I don't know the details of the situation, but I for one wouldn't want security guards running around in my hallway 24-7 either, making a lot of noise, forcing me and my visitors to ID myself whenever I want to enter my own building and generally causing a lot of disturbance. I don't know if those are exactly the things that were going on, but I imagine they must have been and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (or whatever her name is) and her security guards must have been very unaccommodating in finding alternative solutions that were less intrusive for the neighbours as well, otherwise a judge in the Netherlands would never kick someone out of their appartment -- Dutch law is fairly protective of tenants in this regard (and any other for that matter).

I can understand that people may be evicted because they play music too high 24x7 but NOT because they are politicians that are threathened - thats plain insane.

She didn't move around because she didn't feel safe (quite the opposite, she was probably safer in the past), but because her previous places of residence weren't luxurious enough for her. She had a point in at least some of those cases (she's lived on army bases and in prisons at times), but she's making an awful lot of demands for someone who's security concerns are costing Dutch tax payers a lot of money -- while she's not even doing her job as MP very well, she's too busy doing TV performances, giving lectures, writing books and doing other activist work to attend sessions in parliament and do the other work MPs should be doing. She's basically a big attention whore a la Michael Moore, and while I'm fine with the Dutch tax payer having to pay for her security that she needs as a result of that attention whoring, she could be a little more accomodating about the preconditions.

I'm a little confused - are you saying that the state is paying her accomodation ? I would have thought that she would have paid it herself just as any other politician.

So because someone needs a lot of security her neighbours are not entitled to a normal life and should suffer endlessly? The Netherlands is thankfully a civilized country where you're not allowed to more than a certain amount of disturbance to other people's lifes. Getting a Dutch judge to decide that someone is causing enough trouble to be evicted is NOT easy, so whatever was going on there must've been pretty bad. There's no reason in the world why security services can't put her in a more isolated location (that's not an army base or prison) where the security measures are less of a burden to the rest of the neighbourhood...

Unless I'm wrong, then politicians are common people, and no, their neuighbours shall not suffer endlessly, but they must accept it as long as it's nessecary.

From what I know (which frankly isn't a whole lot as obviously details of where she lives are kept private for security reasons), she lives in an appartment building, where people live right on top of each other. Shouldn't be that hard to find a more isolated residence -- like a farm in the countryside for example. We have plenty of those to go around and they're a lot easier to keep safe.

Yeah, it would really be an improvement of the political process if those voted in was supposed to live on desolate islands etc

Basically, yes. The current government are a bunch of huge screw-ups like you wouldn't believe. Both the political leaders and the civil servants working under them. We pretty much have a new scandal involving fraud, leaking of confidential information, incompetance, etc every week these days: justice, secret services, education, health, immigration-- all those departments have been involved in such scandals this year alone. The solution is usually to move the affected individuals to different departments rather than firing them, so they can screw up there as well.

Considering what happened to the evil Austrians, I guess that we just have to evict Holland from EU - to be true, I actually don't belive you.

[germanos]

As I type I'm listening to the debate in parliament.

The view of Rita Verdonk (and/or the ministry) is that Ayaan's citizenship has never been (from a legal point of view) GRANTED. (Given the false name and date of birth)

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by germanos


Easy for you to say.
Do you have any idea to what her neighbours have to put up with?

I don't, but I can very well imagine:
- constant checks when you want to enter your own appartment block.
- checks by the National Security Agency on anybody wanting to visit you.
- checks on the parents of the friends of your children who want to come over to play.
- etc.

I can very well imagine one would find such an infringement of your personal liberty harrasment.

An interesting case will be if Ayaan will be actually permitted to enter the US. As far as I understand she is a person without identity at the moment. How will the US immigration service deal with this?

Yes, It's quite easy for me to say. You live in a democracy, then you have to live with the conditions nessecary. If that means that your politicians needs protection, then you have to live with that - after all, when the threat is removed, then are the security.

There may be on or two persons that think that it's an infringement of their personal liberty, but I would suggest that they move to another place - it is after all their right to move.

[DanS]

Originally posted by germanos
Could you explain the term blowhard to me?

A shameless self-promoter who talks you into complete boredom, and then doesn't have enough sense to quit talking.

[germanos]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Yes, It's quite easy for me to say. You live in a democracy, then you have to live with the conditions nessecary. If that means that your politicians needs protection, then you have to live with that - after all, when the threat is removed, then are the security.

There may be on or two persons that think that it's an infringement of their personal liberty, but I would suggest that they move to another place - it is after all their right to move.

Thank god you're wrong. Not only do we have a democracy, but also rule of law. The judge has ruled that the griefs of Ayaan's neighbours were sound: it's the State that has to find a place for Ayaan to stay without causing infringement of the rights of other Dutch residents.

It's a strange notion that democracy can impose infringement on your personal liberties for the sake of defending them. It won't fly.