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A question about the Christian theory of creation

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  • #61
    To paraphrase a discussion with a theist theorist who developed some of the theories about the universe not having a beginning point (think bowl instead of cone):

    "Don't these theories not have a place for (a creator) God?"

    "He intended it that way."

    Jon Miller
    Jon Miller-
    I AM.CANADIAN
    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

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    • #62
      How about this - God does not exist but is certainly real and can be experienced. In fact you are experiencing God this very moment.
      Well there you're opening a new can of worms, because you've moved beyond accepted Christian doctrine of "God exists". Your argument there is useful because it implies that an attempt to scientifically or empirically prove God's existence will fail... one cannot show that God exists using logic or physical evidence.

      How, then, would one experience God as you claim? If this is to be the only evidence for God, then we would need to be able to communicate it; unless you're suggesting that the experience of God is rather like the experience of the colour "red". If the latter is the case, then it would require an awful lot of work to say that God was the precurser to the universe, and not merely a phenomenon of the universe.

      You are applying great emphasis on the limitations of thought, reason, consciousness, and experience. You are implying that the limitations cannot be overcome. To make this assertion is to be unaware that the very fact that something is believed to be limited implies that the limitation is already transcended.
      I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. The only limitation I have in mind is that an infinite being could not communicate with non-infinite beings (from the perspective of the latter), as from that beings perspective, the non-infinite beings would be infinitesimal.

      The best we can ever do at the moment is judge the world around us, and the conclusions of certain premises we give us. I always thought that the God question was little more than semantic masturbation but it's important to some people. The fact is that we have to start with certain definitions; it's the kind of discussion where tiny differences in your definitions lead to very different conclusions.

      Logic requires comparisons in the finite and as such we must have a basis of communication. The infinite is beyond any logical construct - that does not exclude God from reality at all.
      Actually I think it does. If you say that reality is the physical universe, then anything not part of it (and thus not subject to scientific method) is not reality. The premise my argument there is that logic is the basis of reality.

      Personally, I think it's strange that people would actually want to prove the existence of God. Perhaps its because they're insecure in their faith and want to validate it. All the people I know that are secure in their faith aren't interested in pro/anti God arguments, because whatever the conclusion, it wont affect them because their faith is deeply person. They don't need proof, and proof would even undermine and devalue their faith.
      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

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      • #63
        As I believe God created the existence (not transformed it, but created) no evidence - positive or negative - can be found.
        The "mark" of the AllMighty is this World is just the World itself with his natural laws, or,saying diferently, everything.
        Best regards,

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        • #64
          Note that I am not saying that there is experimental proof. I am merely showing that claims that God doesn't exist are without foundation.

          Jon Miller
          Jon Miller-
          I AM.CANADIAN
          GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

          Comment


          • #65
            As I believe God created the existence (not transformed it, but created) no evidence - positive or negative - can be found.
            The "mark" of the AllMighty is this World is just the World itself with his natural laws, or,saying diferently, everything.
            this makes no sense.
            "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
            "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Jon Miller
              Was the universe not scientific 400 years ago because we did not understand the atom? Obviously it was still scientific.
              Was the universe scientific when the prophets, messiahs and saints of various faiths went around casting spells and performing miracles?

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              • #67
                Two different creationist stories comprise the Geneisis retelltings. The elohist and teh Yahweh creation stories. The elohim are often refered to as a plural noun referring to "the gods" . This is the creation story that deals with the 7 days creation story. In this the mode of creation it is always referred to as they spoke and something happened. I believe it is likewise somewhat murky as to what existed before creation save a "formless void". (Open for interpretation whether that means matter existed or not).

                In contrast the Yaweh passages are the garden of eden stories where Yaweh created man from dust in his own image no indication that it was creation by mere command but as a result of manual toil.

                The elohist story most closely resembles the babylonian creation story.

                A decent read
                "Just puttin on the foil" - Jeff Hanson

                “In a democracy, I realize you don’t need to talk to the top leader to know how the country feels. When I go to a dictatorship, I only have to talk to one person and that’s the dictator, because he speaks for all the people.” - Jimmy Carter

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Jon Miller
                  Err, you know that catholcism is also Paulian Christianity?


                  I have never heard any Catholic define themselves as "Paulian" and there's no such thing according to the on-line Catholic dictionary or encylopaedia.

                  One of the biggest Catholic resources on the Internet, containing more than 10,000 articles




                  Non paulian Christianity is Gnosticism, Arianism, or other such things. The Jehovah Witnesses are probably not part of Paulian Christianity, the Mormons might not be either.


                  Not according to any definition I could find...

                  Definition, Synonyms, Translations of Paulian by The Free Dictionary

                  Pau´li`an
                  n. 1. (Eccl. Hist.) A follower of Paul of Samosata, a bishop of Antioch in the third century, who was deposed for denying the divinity of Christ.



                  Paulian Fundamentalism + Inbreeding = Westboro Baptist Church!


                  As of 2004 or 2005 I have begun to use Paulian and Peterian Christian instead of Gentile and Jewish Christian



                  I'm very much inclined to conclude this is just another vehicle of deception from those perverse and beguiling protestant hell-spawn.
                  I don't know what I am - Pekka

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                  • #69
                    I called it paulian based upon a Wiki article. It means that the theology is based upon the theology of Paul, as found in the New Testament.

                    As Catholics use the same new testament as protestants, yes, catholics are paulian.

                    I started using it because I saw it in a Wiki article, and I had people constantly post that not everyone thought alike in the first few centuries of AD, that some people did not beleive that Christ was the son of God/etc.

                    Jon Miller
                    Jon Miller-
                    I AM.CANADIAN
                    GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Sandman


                      Was the universe scientific when the prophets, messiahs and saints of various faiths went around casting spells and performing miracles?
                      Err, yes?

                      Just like it was scientific before we knew what electrons were...

                      Jon Miller
                      Jon Miller-
                      I AM.CANADIAN
                      GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        on Wiki



                        JM
                        Jon Miller-
                        I AM.CANADIAN
                        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Yeah, Terra, Paulian, as in St. Paul, who decided what was orthodoxy and what was not (Gnostic) in the early Church. Catholicism and Protestantism is Pauline Christianity. As it the Orthodox Church. OTOH, Gnostics are not part of that tradition.
                          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                          • #73
                            God-damned perverse hell-spawn deslyxsics!!
                            I don't know what I am - Pekka

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                            • #74
                              Yep, OK. 'Pauline.'

                              I still don't agree with your categorisation by the way. But I won't get the chance to check up on it just now. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

                              Personally, I wouldn't let Paul kiss my furry little butt.
                              I don't know what I am - Pekka

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                              • #75
                                Whaleboy:

                                Me: How about this - God does not exist but is certainly real and can be experienced. In fact you are experiencing God this very moment.


                                Whaleboy: Well there you're opening a new can of worms, because you've moved beyond accepted Christian doctrine of "God exists". Your argument there is useful because it implies that an attempt to scientifically or empirically prove God's existence will fail... one cannot show that God exists using logic or physical evidence.
                                Indeed sir; to argue for God`s existence is to not realize that the position is self-defeating because it is a circular construct of logic. This is why you can rip and snort and dismantle the concepts most have in the God debate.

                                How, then, would one experience God as you claim?
                                Buckle your seat belt and I will address this.

                                If this is to be the only evidence for God, then we would need to be able to communicate it; unless you're suggesting that the experience of God is rather like the experience of the colour "red". If the latter is the case, then it would require an awful lot of work to say that God was the precurser to the universe, and not merely a phenomenon of the universe.
                                God is hiding in plain site. If you are serious I will explain.

                                Emptiness:

                                Most derive their identity from the past, their experiences and history. They were born in such and such country and city. Parents were... brothers and sisters etc.
                                Because we have such an incredible abilty for recall and abstract thought this is confused as to what and who we are. Memory defines most people as if the memory and definition of past life experience is what and who we are. It is reinforced by smells, tastes, and especially emotional attachment to the past. Good and bad memories make up the self actualizing individual.

                                No doubt we did in fact experience the past and we can learn and grow from these memories, but they are not reality at all. Our past assists us into the future as well as the present and so; the mind plays a game on itself and mixes or confuses the past with present reality. It tries to project this identity into the future so it will survive.

                                The emptiness I am discussing is the ever present unfolding of reality. The only one that has ever or will ever exist. This is true existence but the funny thing is the moment you try to perceive it - it is already history.

                                This present moment is truth and perception of it in actuality is wisdom. I did not exist (context and emphasis) - but I do exist and yet the person I was that began this paragraph no longer exists. There is no way to maintain this past expression, it is to attempt the futile.

                                Perceiver:

                                No matter how hard we look we will never find a "thinker" per se. In other words we do not find a "person" as an identity. We do find a source of thought however.

                                For example; Think of a snow capped mountain, who told your brain to think of a snow capped mountain?
                                Now, think of anything you choose, who told your brain to image the thought?

                                Our brain is the servant and not the master. We could say cause and effect introduced by comparisons. Burn the concept all the way down.

                                Think of white noise. Can you empty your mind of any comparisons? Can you go between the words and images?

                                Unless we see behind the appearance and go to the root cause and effect we will continue to look. The resolving of the enigma is in the understanding that there is no being, not even a supremely great being, there is being in and of itself.

                                This means there is experience in a state of flux and a perceiver that has no memory, experience, or objective observation of beginning or end. Therefore, it is beyond appearances including in the mind.

                                We could say it begins at birth, conception, or at some point but this is a projection as it is beyond any logical construct. None has ever witnessed the beginning or entry of consciousness.

                                The perceiver has never an end and continues ever present. It has no memory, experience, or objective observation of an end. Therefore, it is beyond appearances including in the mind. It transmutates itself into perpetual consciousness. None has ever witnessed the end or cessation of consciousness.

                                It`s not an optical illusion. It just looks like one.


                                Union:


                                The singularity of the universe is not multiple consciousness, it is singular in experience, observation, and logic. This is why you must push beyond thought. Logical constructs are dependant upon comparisons. It certainly has its use to see whether we are in delusion and for this it is an effective tool but it cannot define reality.

                                Reality is not a concept it is an absence of separation.
                                "I"/not -"I" is a concept and brings polar pairs. If the "I"/not -"I" merges the concept evaporates.

                                The original state is when we are not aware of our beingness or that is all one can be aware of. It is nonlocal and nonlinear. It has no position to compare to velocity. Time could be said to be 'thought in motion'. This does not mean we cease to relate to others, on the contrary, we heal as many as can be healed including what may block the view.

                                The plant transcends the limitation of being a seed.


                                Actually I think it does. If you say that reality is the physical universe, then anything not part of it (and thus not subject to scientific method) is not reality. The premise my argument there is that logic is the basis of reality.
                                Logic is a useful tool to show us if we are in delusion. It cannot define reality.

                                Nothing defines reality - and nothing can define God.

                                Personally, I think it's strange that people would actually want to prove the existence of God. Perhaps its because they're insecure in their faith and want to validate it. All the people I know that are secure in their faith aren't interested in pro/anti God arguments, because whatever the conclusion, it wont affect them because their faith is deeply person. They don't need proof, and proof would even undermine and devalue their faith.
                                You know I respect you as a thinker, and I believe you have great potential and may even contribute something of great value to humankind one day - I mean this bro.

                                If we can empty our mind of all comparisons and go beyond the perceptions and concepts we find a place of stillness that allows us to accept and surrender. Empty the mind of all comparisons even for a second or two and keep returning to this place. If you are unable to empty your mind of comparisons, words, and images something is blocked and we must find what the "it" is and forgive.

                                The illusion is in the belief that something that can be compared is permanent. A concept from the mind is always subject to change when it does not meet the expectations of the fantasy of a projection of ideal reality.

                                The solution is in surrendering to every experience, use forgiveness when you know something is binding you to the ever present changing reality, and surrender to whatever may be.

                                It means to be completely at home with yourself and to enjoy your own private companionship. To be able to trust yourself with absolute abandon.
                                To center yourself so to speak so that the left and right hemispheres of your mind are centered and in sinc. To be fearless in your self approval.

                                This can only be acomplished with total self respect. The way to trust and respect yourself is the adventure of opening up your heart(will and intent) and mind. This requires humility and honesty in all experiences and thought.

                                You must delve deep within your self and always use the tool of forgiveness - as the one who is willing to forgive without condition is free to love(agape) and experience innocent abandon.

                                You no longer have to entertain any fantasy of being somewhere or someone else as the present moment is filled to the brim with wonder and expectation as it rekindles its own fascination as if learning is brand new.

                                The true test - how long you can be alone and completely misunderstood and rejected by everyone else, and still enjoy your life as if this does not matter at all.

                                Maranatha
                                You have made peace with the evil Wheredehekowi tribe-we demand you tell us if they are a tribe that is playing this scenario.
                                We also agree not to crush you, if you teach us the tech of warp drive and mental telepathy and give 10 trinkets

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