A question about the Christian theory of creation

[SlowwHand]

Gay and/or bisexual. Where do you get this crap?

[Terra Nullius]

Actually he was bisexual

Well, that makes more sense.

Damn gays, trying to take all the glory again.

[aneeshm]

Re: Re: A question about the Christian theory of creation

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

Wow. That pantheism of yours is really deeply rooted, huh?

It may be . What does that have to do with the discussion ?

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

Neither.

Before Abraham was, I am.

Then would you tell me what is the "correct" , approved interpretation ?

[chequita guevara]

There is no correct and approved interpretation. First you'd need a unified church, and despite the myths, that has never existed either.

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by aneeshm
What does that have to do with the discussion ?

Both of the options you have some up with are basically pantheist and you seem to have phrased the whole question in more or less pantheist terms.

You have two basic variables - form and matter. So, the puzzle of creation (as you have posed it) amounts to,..
Option i) matter existed, then it received form
Option ii) form (or divine intellect) existed, then it acquired matter.

You are missing the third variable, the 'act of existence.'

Then would you tell me what is the "correct" , approved interpretation ?

This reminds me of a girl I met one time. She had just finished traveling solo through the 'Stans (Tajik, Khazak, etc) and claimed to be a muslim. She also said she didn't believe in God.

Now, I have no idea how someone could believe themselves to be muslim and yet deny the existence of God. Then again, she was from California.

Anyone can claim to be Christian.

The RCC version (roughly speaking):
God is without beginning or end. God is completely beyond time and matter.

The universe has it's act of existence through God. So, before Creation, there was neither time nor matter. God called the universe into existence out of nothing.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

God is without beginning or end. God is completely beyond time and matter.

The universe has it's act of existence through God. So, before Creation, there was neither time nor matter. God called the universe into existence out of nothing.

That (or something like that) is the most common interpretation. But honestly, most people rarely talk about it nor is it something that is taught much.

What makes one Christian (Paulian Christian) is the beleif that Christ died for our sins, that there is one God in three, etc (basically what KH posted earlier).

Jon Miller

[Terra Nullius]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
What makes one Christian is ...

I'd have to disagree with that.

But we could go on about it forever. I could say that what makes one Christian is baptism, or the presence and action of the spirit, or maybe a couple of other criteria.

For argument's sake, I'd be more likely to accept that what makes one Christian is that they identify themselves as Christian.

[Jon Miller]

Err, I disagree with that. There are some who wish to be called Christian, but don't beleive in Christ.

Basically, those who are Christian (in the commonly used version of the word) are those who follow something akin to the Nicean creed.

Now I agree that that isn't completely solid (my denomination has no creed, and thinks that matters are much more personal between a person and God, but still it is a good staring point)

Now there is a difference between those who are Christian, and those who claim to be christian

but when you refer to points of definition, it is best to go with commonly held ones, otherwise definitions lose meaning

Jon Miller
(basically, what we now refer to Christianity is Paulian Christianity, and is based (at least somewhat) on his theology)

[fed1943]

Christians created among themselves a signal (that after became a prayer) that answer that question: is the Credo.
Who believes in what the Credo says is Christian, who doesn't believe it is not.
Best regards,

[Jon Miller]

Well, I agree that the those who beleive the Nicean Creed are Christians.. (at least are saying that they are Christians)

However, I don't think it is neccesary to. It is a good starting point though.

Jon Miller

[Terra Nullius]

Oi oi oi oi oi

How many ways do you wanna argue this one?

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Which actually contradicts my own statement. sometimes people who don't even consider themselves Christian can be, in fact Christian.

Also depends, on your perspective, what a Christian calls Christian and what an atheist calls Christian may be quite different. What a Buddhist refers to as Christian may not be the same as either of them, ... and so on ad infinitum.

but when you refer to points of definition, it is best to go with commonly held ones, otherwise definitions lose meaning

What do you mean by "meaning?"

Anyway no. I'm not gonna go with 'commonly held' definitions, because they can only be true within a given perspective. And we already have two realities to account for in this thread (hindu vs "western").

But I think my def'n is perfectly clear and useful, so I'll stick with it.

what we now refer to Christianity is Paulian Christianity

Oh!!

You mean Protestants!

Nope they don't count, because
1) They're all destined for hellfire anyhow
2) They don't really exist anyway. They're just demons sent from the underworld to lead the true followers astray.

Gotta go. See you guys tomorrow

[Jon Miller]

Err, you know that catholcism is also Paulian Christianity?

Non paulian Christianity is Gnosticism, Arianism, or other such things. The Jehovah Witnesses are probably not part of Paulian Christianity, the Mormons might not be either.

Jon Miller

Jon Miller

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by Terra Nullius

2) They don't really exist anyway. They're just demons sent from the underworld to lead the true followers astray.

That's true. My Tyrolean priest swore he saw their horns.

[Whaleboy]

The question of pantheism is interesting here. If God created the universe, it is reasonable to say that he had some idea of what he was going to do. In other words, God is supposed to preclude the universe; God existed before the universe per se.

Now if we accept in our definition of the universe that that means "everything that exists", then God existed before everything existed. Obviously there is a contradiction there, which is itself a pretty standard refutation of the Cosmological argument pro God but we'll ignore that for a second.

If God existed before the universe, then God was the only thing that existed, and if you want to play semantics, then at the time God was the "universe"; pantheism in other words.

The Christian who wants to believe in the concepts of the holy trinity, and heaven+hell, would have to redefine the universe in order to refute this pantheist conclusion. Accepting the existence of God, and that God created the universe, I think that pantheism in this sense is an inescapable conclusion.

[FrostyBoy]

When we finally find the answer to the universe, we're all going to go "ooohhh.. of course!"