Jesus Week

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by rah


I thought New Years Day and the 4th of July were considered Federal Holidays. They can fall on a weekend.

What about deer hunting season in Pennsylvania?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by MrFun



That's funny.


Western European countries seem to be much more secular in politics than United States. And I think that makes Western European countries better, not worse.

I thought you knew history?

JM

[JohnT]

He knows the history he wants to know.

Like we all do, of course.

[mrmitchell]

Last Thursday, I went to a seder ceremony involving "wine," the breaking of bread (matzot), washing of feet, and prayers/recitations.

We celebrated this at our local gay community church (Metropolitan Community Church) It was a meaningful ceremony -- I was glad I went.

I certainly can't condemn you for going to church, but do gays in Iowa (?) really feel unwelcome at any other place?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


I thought you knew history?

JM

You mean about the religious wars that Europe engulfed itself in during the medieval and early modern eras?

Or the various Crusades that European countries carried out against Muslims and heretical European populations?

Or how European heretics were burned at the stake?




But of course, you failed to realize that I'm talking about contemporary Western European countries. They seem to have a stronger separation of religion from politics than United States.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by MrFun



But of course, you failed to realize that I'm talking about contemporary Western European countries. They seem to have a stronger separation of religion from politics than United States.

If by that you mean separation of Christianity from politics, yes.

[MrFun]

Ogie

[Son of David]

Originally posted by Jaguar
I contend that everything that pertains to Jesus

1. Is creepy
2. Does not make any sense

And not in any sort of "zomfg teenager just realized that religion is an easy target for criticism" sort of way. A religion that asserts the existence of a God, and little more, isn't stupid. Something convoluted like the Gospel is.

Yea, not even Muslims proclaim that Muhammad was God incarnate.

If Jesus was actually God, (which is what Christians must believe unless they want to be considered idolatrous,) then what sense does it make when they say that God gave his SON up as a ransom for man's sins?

If Jesus was God then God killed himself on the cross.

PS I liked the quote I got from the Apolyton server a moment ago, from one of my favourites, the ANTICHRIST himself:

"I call Christianity the *one* great curse, the *one* great intrinsic depravity, the *one* great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, *petty* -- I call it the *one* mortal blemish of mankind."

Shalom!

[Elok]

Okay, SoD, so you apparently either haven't heard of the concept of the Trinity or are unable to understand it. What's that to us?

And Nietzsche wasn't the antichrist. He was a well-meaning man with a gift for poetry and an evidently genuine compassion for the suffering, which was undermined by aristocratic prejudice, syphilitic madness, and the mental scars of being raised by a trio of nutty Calvinist spinsters.

[JohnT]

Originally posted by Son of David





Yea, not even Muslims proclaim that Muhammad was God incarnate.

If Jesus was actually God, (which is what Christians must believe unless they want to be considered idolatrous,) then what sense does it make when they say that God gave his SON up as a ransom for man's sins?

If Jesus was God then God killed himself on the cross.

PS I liked the quote I got from the Apolyton server a moment ago, from one of my favourites, the ANTICHRIST himself:

"I call Christianity the *one* great curse, the *one* great intrinsic depravity, the *one* great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, *petty* -- I call it the *one* mortal blemish of mankind."

Shalom!

This is the part I don't get.

Jesus was a Jew. The Jews were God's "Chosen People". Jesus was killed by an Italian. God's response?

"Let's make the Jews second-class citizens for the next 2,000 years, while giving the Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution to the very Italians (and their friends) who ordered my sons death!"

[Elok]

See, now that's what I call a well-done troll. Take notes, Son of David.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by JohnT


This is the part I don't get.

Jesus was a Jew. The Jews were God's "Chosen People". Jesus was killed by an Italian. God's response?

"Let's make the Jews second-class citizens for the next 2,000 years, while giving the Renaissance and the Scientific Revolution to the very Italians who ordered my sons death!"

serious response
You ARE aware that the rationale for the exile is one of the crucial debates withing the Jewish religion these last two thousand years? Oh wait, youre arguing the Christian religion, no one really cares about Judaism, never mind.

Better Response
Italians? Er, we outfoxed them, by taking over science and the arts and almost everything else they invented

Musical musing
Its not like the Jews did nothing in the Italian Renaissance. Salome Rossi composed some pretty good choral music, forex. But it took us awhile to get the hang of this science thingie. OTOH we were doing western philosophy in a big way starting with Spinoza.

[Elok]

I thought Spinoza more or less renounced his faith though? "Jews are really beneficial to humanity; you just have to turn 'em pantheist so they quit thinking about Smiting the Amakalekahookamites or whatever."

[lord of the mark]

by the way, 2 points for Son of David

1. Is your dad actually named David. Cause you know, if youre implying that YOURE the moshiach, thats like a pretty big averah, ya know?

2. Getting into these atheist vs Christian disputes is generally pretty pointless, from a Jewish perspective. I dont really expect others to understand Judaism, though im happy to do my best explaining it. And Im not interested in exploring the nuances of trinitarian doctrine - its not a "live option" for me, the sense William James i think used. I certainly accept that some very smart people wrapped their heads around justifcations for it, but not starting with it, I have no need to pursue OR to deny justifications for it. Im interested in discussing claims the NT makes about Judaism and Taanach, but I dont go beyond that in dispuations.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Elok
I thought Spinoza more or less renounced his faith though? "Jews are really beneficial to humanity; you just have to turn 'em pantheist so they quit thinking about Smiting the Amakalekahookamites or whatever."

1 he never renounced his Jewish idenity/nationality, AFAIK. In fact according to Fakenheim, he suggested a return to the land of Israel, and the setting up of a secular state. A proto secular zionist

http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/spinoza.html

2. Im not convinced pantheism is completely inconsistent with Jewish sources. Spinoza never explored the possibility of "Reform Judaism" cause he was, you know, excommunicated, and stuff. In another time or place Im sure he would not have been.

3. Of course many Jews who did great things in the arts and sciences were flat out atheists. But some were not.

4. A quibble - according to rabbinical consensus, the last Amalekites died out long ago, ergo all commandments to kill them are moot.