Personal Spiritual Problems

[Barnabas]

Originally posted by Pekka
Jesus did not write that book. So. Anything that's on it can not be taken word by word, if you have that one passage, I give it value of... negative 1.

Why call yourself christian if everything we know about jesus may be wrong since all we know about jesus is from those books?

Who knows, maybe Jesus never gave the Sermon of the Mount????

With that point of view you cant call yourself christian, unless christian means something like whatever pekka likes and thinks its ok.

You dont need to be a christian to be a relatively good man, considered good by most society, according to whatever values the society has nowadays.

[Pekka]

Sava, how do you know where the US is really located? Have you been to space and seen it yourself? Google Earth has an agenda too, it might be propaganda, forget about movies!

Your point is half valid. That is to say, you're giving a general situation of how can you trust any written word, that is a valid point, but comparing bible and the information you get form war where you are one side of it, well, even though the legality of the information point still stands, the analogy and comparison doesn't

[Pekka]

Branchy, so now you make the rules? Ok.. I disagree.

[Proteus_MST]

Originally posted by Sava
But do you understand what I'm saying about God and religion, when it comes to perfection?

If God is perfect, he's going to get it right the first time. Meaning, any religion that is truly the "word of God" is going to be perfect. It's going to stand up to any test, any doubt, any nay-sayers, it's not going to have any logical problems. It's going to be perfect. And that's how you can spot the false religions. If they aren't perfect, they are false. And any false religion shouldn't be believed in.

This is what I want believers to understand. If your religion isn't perfect... it's false.

Why continue to believe in something that is false? Just for faith? That's a pretty silly and ridiculous reason, IMO. Why would God require blind faith? Blind faith is also what a false religion would need.

If God does exist, he's obviously not revealing himself... for whatever reason. But we can obviously assume that he doesn't want us to waste our time with faith and belief... otherwise, he'd just present himself and tell us in no uncertain terms... BELIEVE IN ME... WORSHIP ME...

Otherwise, he's either on the down low, or he doesn't exist. Either way, we should concentrate on other things than faith and belief.

Of course all of this coulds only be considered true for religions,
which believe in a personal god,
i.e. god as an entity separate from ouselves (and the universe)
who directly or indirectly speaks to his believers and tells them "his" truth

[Barnabas]

I am just asking how can someone call himself christian when everything we know about christ may be wrong or fake?

That would be like me saying I practice the same religion of the people from the Harappan civilization, of whom we know pretty much nothing.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Sava
We absolutely can... if it's blatantly obvious they arrived at that "decision" by not thinking critically. Or if their belief was the product of conditioning (culture, upbringing) and not a decision at all.

You might not be as smart or as open minded as you think you are.

[Pekka]

Branchy, well, you can never know anything for sure. If you want to see it with your own eyes and that's the only way, then you really can't be religious I guess.

But there's always a limit of how much you need to know or read in order to make your decision. There is no absolutes in this one. Then you add the faith part and you can be a Christian.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
I am just asking how can someone call himself christian when everything we know about christ may be wrong or fake?

I don't think he's saying that 'everything' is false. Just that it's not all true in the sense that some people believe it to be.

[Barnabas]

Then, why dismiss that paragraph about Jesus telling peter, I will build my church on you blah blah, thats really all I was asking.

[Pekka]

RIght and most of all, I don't consider many things important at all that many people seem to grab on.. such as homosexuality. I just don't see it as an important issue, an issue we have raged over for years now. It's like, who cares?

Many other stuff too. Most rituals too, I just don't see the point in them. I mean the religious point, they have ritual and traditional value, I'm not saying they're worthless. But I do not see why, to be a Christian, I should ever do those things. It's as if God cares if had some wine and a .. 'bread' that tastes horrible and you can choke on every now and then. I'm saying, this plays NO importance with the connection you and God have. The connection is 100% spiritual.

IF these rituals helps you to keep the stuff goign on, then sure, there's nothing wrong in it. But I'm just saying it doesn't make me a bad Christian or anything I don't participate in that. Relationship wise, me and God, it has 0 importance, if I so decide. I trust God will send me like a huge 9 feet chick with 9 boobs to warn me about it if I'm getting this wrong. He wouldn't let me down like that when I've used my own logics and heart.

[Pekka]

branchy, why would you miss any part at all? Why wouldn't I take everything literally instead?

Because it was written by men and the articles were combined by men. I see it as a guideline, not historical fact book. I wouldn't go as far as to assume that the quoted parts are word to word accurate. I mean I figure that's pretty foolish. The interpretation of it might have changed over the time plus it has been translated many times so... who knows. I would not take even those words as truths.. as in 'this is what they said'.

I rather trust the big issues and not look for meanings and what ever. Big issues are clear. I go with the big issues because I'm a pig driving in the fast lane.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
Then, why dismiss that paragraph about Jesus telling peter, I will build my church on you blah blah, thats really all I was asking.

Why dismiss it? Why not just not take it to mean what you think it means?

[beingofone]

Pekka:

I don't think I have any responsiblities as a Christian except to do what my heart tells me to do.

This is the essence of Christianity. This is what the entire New Testament is about. I know you said not to quote scripture but indulge me.

You are always searching the scriptures, because as for you, you think in them is contained eternal life. Those are the ones that testify of me.
And yet you do not desire to come to me in order that you may be having true life.
Laudation and praise from men I do not accept and I reject it.
Moreover, I have known you from experience, that the love (agape) of God you do not have in yourselves.
As for myself, I have come in my Fathers name and authority, and you reject me.
If another comes in his own name and authority, that one you will receive and esteem.
As for you, how will you believe, when you seek as a way of life laudation and esteem one of another?
The praise and approval that comes from God alone you always should seek and you are not seeking.

-- Jesus

At this point in his life he no longer needed the scriptures. He had transcended the thought of Moses and the prophets. It is not that The Jewish scriptures are not inspired, its just that the world was not 1000 BC anymore and Israel had survived. Moses` statutes were primarily a state constitution and a history for an ancient country not unlike Hammarubi`s code (an eye for an eye). In this sense, when compared to say the Assyrians or Hittites, they were extreemly advanced and humanitarian. Context is everything if one desires to understand the scripture.

Jesus realized that most of the nation 'missed the point'. For example: You could not be put to death under the law of Moses unless there were two or three credible witnesses to the crime. The point of the law was to exercise mercy, meaning refuse to testify and forgive instead.

Jesus summed it up in "love thy neighbor as thyself". He had seen the true purpose in the law. The perfection that some cannot see in finding the high awareness of truth was there the whole time hidden in plain view. Forgive rather than 'testify' and witness someones death.

If you put a frog in a box with a lid, the frog will attempt to jump out. After so many attempts of hitting the top of the box the frog eventually gives up. You can then remove the lid and the frog will never attempt to jump out again.

What must be done, and what will be done, is for you to continue to write your own scripture. You can build on the foundation of past wise thought and experience but unless we are transcending what has gone before us, we are stuck in mediocrity and conventional thinking. We have allowed someone or something else to define our reality.

Its as if theism relies on atheism or it would have no purpose. Its as if atheism depends on theism or it would have no existence. Both of these boxes must be pushed to the extreem so that the sides blow out and the concepts, from both perspectives, are transcended and discarded as past points of reflection.

Do not ever think or believe there is a ceiling on experience of what is and is not possible to accomplish with a leap into the infinite. Once the leap is taken the universe responds to the faith and assists the effort. The nature of the All is to respond to this kind of daring, dauntless attempt. Its as if the universe itself is informed of the effort and offers its own reward, urging the whole of you onward.

Impossible is a word found in the mouths of those who do not understand and secretly hope you will fail. The innocence of the eternal that scoops you up and carries you on will ever be unsuspicious of what you desire to accomplish. The clarity of compassion will propel with a momentum all of its own, and give without restraint, a supernatural consciousness when compared to past experience of self limitation.
The alternative is to do nothing with a great deal of skill.

If one is determined to experience enlightenment, no matter what may come, and willing to do absolutely anything, these are the ones who actually make it. God is an all or nothing proposition.

Forgiveness and self acceptance are the key.

I do not "love my neighbor as myself" because you deserve it - its because I deserve it. I need to be OK with me.

Begin with yourself and forgive yourself each day of a single memory that holds you in guilt, fear, or attachment. After all, if God forgives you, shouldn`t you agree with him? You will begin to experience self wholeness.

Each day resolve to forgive a single memory of someone who has wronged you in the past and you will experience compassion/agape for this individual in freedom and wholeness.

We must gather the courage to look God in the eye and be at home with what we see. The scripture is past experience of wholeness in the reality of God`s domain, we can learn much from Moses to Paul, but ultimately it is with you and you alone to decide what is truth.

[Kidlicious]

beingofone just blew my mind. I'm going to have to save that post and ponder it later.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Kidicious


You might not be as smart or as open minded as you think you are.

well, as for smart, unfortunately, for everyone else that has to put up with me... my brain has been through intense testing and observation by professionals... I may not have the proper amount of life experience or "wealth of knowledge", but there's no doubt about my raw intelligence

as for open minded, at this point, I may have various beliefs and conclusions about things, but I always approach everything with absolute objectivity... or at least, as best I can...

however, that does not mean I cannot reach a conclusion after going through the process of extensive thought and internal debate on an issue... and in some cases, an issue may never be at rest in my head... including this one.

But because I can say with almost absolute certainty that something is not true, (like say 2+2=5) does not mean I'm close minded.

If you tell me you don't believe 2+2=5, is it right for me to accuse you of being close minded?

Of course not. Because 2+2 does not equal 5.

The only difference here is that so many people believe "2+2=5"

Which also, gives legitimacy to the notion... the false belief.

But just because I can recognize something as being obviously false doesn't mean I'm not open minded.