Chavez steals millions from foreign companies.

[chequita guevara]

Have you forgotten the employers "strike," i.e., the lockout, so soon? Those numbers Oerdin keeps showing about Venezuela's falling oil production came from a time when those running the Venezuelan economy decided that they would "make the economy scream" in order to get rid of Chavez. Sadly, Oerdin has this thing about Chavez. He cannot use rational judgement with any critique of the man. Anything critical is automatically true. If I didn't know better, I'd believe John's a Venezuelan elite.

Look, I don't know how things are gonna turn out. I am concerned that his opponents face violence for their views, but I am also aware that they frequently initiate the violence themselves. I know that the anti-Chavez crowd lies through its teeth, but I don't know how much the pro-Chavez crowd is lying.

I do know that for the average poor person in Venezuela (and they are the majority of the population), things are better for them now than they have ever been. They have access to medical care for the first time in history. That is not something to be pooh-poohed. They are getting better access to education then they've ever had. After eight (I think) years in office, if the man was failing to deliver, he'd have lost the support of his people. He is more popular now than he has ever been.

So, benefits now with possible slower growth in the future or faster growth no with and a promise of future benefits with no guarantees. Given the history of development, only a fool would pick the latter.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Tell me of a country thats achieved rapid economic development without foreign direct investment?

Japan. South Korea. China (to a lesser extent).

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oerdin
"Give me 50% or I will take 100% and there is nothing you can do about it."

Yep, no problem with that. No coercion occuring there. Proporty rights were entirely respected.

I found this somehow ironic.

It's not like these foreign oil companies played fair in the process of acquiring these oil fields. You know, paying good prices, not using coercion, etc.

[Velociryx]

Have you forgotten the employers "strike," i.e., the lockout, so soon? Those numbers Oerdin keeps showing about Venezuela's falling oil production came from a time when those running the Venezuelan economy decided that they would "make the economy scream" in order to get rid of Chavez. Sadly, Oerdin has this thing about Chavez. He cannot use rational judgement with any critique of the man. Anything critical is automatically true. If I didn't know better, I'd believe John's a Venezuelan elite.

Look, I don't know how things are gonna turn out. I am concerned that his opponents face violence for their views, but I am also aware that they frequently initiate the violence themselves. I know that the anti-Chavez crowd lies through its teeth, but I don't know how much the pro-Chavez crowd is lying.

I do know that for the average poor person in Venezuela (and they are the majority of the population), things are better for them now than they have ever been. They have access to medical care for the first time in history. That is not something to be pooh-poohed. They are getting better access to education then they've ever had. After eight (I think) years in office, if the man was failing to deliver, he'd have lost the support of his people. He is more popular now than he has ever been.

So, benefits now with possible slower growth in the future or faster growth no with and a promise of future benefits with no guarantees. Given the history of development, only a fool would pick the latter.

Che: Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here....You're saying that these men....the former oil bosses in the Ven. economy, would rather crash the entire economy than run the dreaded risk of bettering the lives of "the huddled masses" of that country? Is that correct?

That seems to me to be a surreal, almost cartoonish characterization of those men. Granted, such a consortium would make an excellent villain in an Ian Flemming novel, and a great foil for James Bond, but I find it difficult to fathom why a group of men would be willing to dismantle the engine that drives their own fortunes on the basis that it might also serve to enrich someone else.

In other words, you don't shoot the goose that lays your golden eggs cos you're scared you might lose a few.

Aside from the logic problems inherent in what you propose, from your own communistic dogma, it seems clear that even if what you said was absolutely correct, then the problem would be a self correcting one, and such men would not find themselves in charge of the oil business for very long. And, if the masses in Ven. don't have anything anyway, then it's not like it'd hurt them to have the economy crash and burn.

I think perhaps you have become a victim of your own party's propaganda?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

I found this somehow ironic.

It's not like these foreign oil companies played fair in the process of acquiring these oil fields. You know, paying good prices, not using coercion, etc.

I don't have any info on WHAT kind of deal they worked, so I can't comment on the particulars, but I get the gist of what you're saying.

And would you not agree that governments who find that they made a bad initial deal have ALL sorts of methodologies open to them to remedy that situation (higher taxes springing to mind immediately)? (remedies that don't involve simply taking what you want, and scaring off future investors)

Of course, given that they're already paying a 30% royalty PLUS a hefty tax bill, my hunch is that the Ven. government didn't make a categorically BAD deal with the companies. How much more do you want them to pay? Or, do you think they shoulda just spent hundreds of millions of bucks on the infrastructure for free.

Cos Chavez is a cool guy and all.



-=Vel=-

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger

I found this somehow ironic.

It's not like these foreign oil companies played fair in the process of acquiring these oil fields. You know, paying good prices, not using coercion, etc.

Which deals were unfair and forced upon Venezuela? All of them?

[Jon Miller]

If something belongs to a group (let's say a society). And one member of the society (or even someone from outside who forces themselves in) threatens the other members of the society, and takes control of it. And then that member who took control in an unlawful manner does something with the property of that society (let's say gives it away to his freinds). How is it wrong than, when the society has kicked out that member that stole from them, that it decides to take back the property that had been earlier wrongfully given away?

JM

[Provost Harrison]

Very true, it is the whole difficulty in speaking in terms as black and white as 'theft' when dealing with these kinds of matters. A change of regime, for examples the expropriations in Cuba that followed the revolution occurred in this manner. The new regime considered themselves to have a blank slate, so to speak...

[Velociryx]

Well, I guess it's not wrong at all.

Just as it's not wrong then, for members outside of the society to opt NOT to risk their fortunes in an effort to develop Ven's resources, on the basis that they now have a proven track record of changing their minds about what's fair.

"Oops! We know you spent a lot of money here and all, but....we've decided your claim is null and void."

It don't take many trips down that isle for foriegn money to dry up completely, so if foriegn investment is desired, then another approach might be in order.

-=Vel=-

[Jon Miller]

Oh, I agree

you want to make sure that you are dealing with a government that will last...

JM

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Well, I guess it's not wrong at all.

Just as it's not wrong then, for members outside of the society to opt NOT to risk their fortunes in an effort to develop Ven's resources, on the basis that they now have a proven track record of changing their minds about what's fair.

"Oops! We know you spent a lot of money here and all, but....we've decided your claim is null and void."

It don't take many trips down that isle for foriegn money to dry up completely, so if foriegn investment is desired, then another approach might be in order.

-=Vel=-

That is the downside of expropriation...you don't want to bite the hand that feeds...

[Arcite]

Um interesting thread here...

Have any of you seen the documentary The Revolution will not be televised

Facinating film, Chavez has many enemies. He isn't paranoid about the US trying to overthrow him, because they already tried it a few years ago.

Still I wish him all the best, I think he is part of a new wave of leaders in SA that actually care about their people, as opposed to just enriching themselves at their expense.


---


"Oops! We know you spent a lot of money here and all, but....we've decided your claim is null and void."

It don't take many trips down that isle for foriegn money to dry up completely, so if foriegn investment is desired, then another approach might be in order.

--

Ofcourse the world is chaning, you don't think that Chavez is just sitting around doing nothing...there are likely many companies bidding for new contracts, such as china for example...

[Provost Harrison]

That is why I said at this point, he would be better advised to tax these companies more to claw the money back...

[Arrian]

Vel,

FYI - Chavez's opponents DID try to crash the economy to get rid of him.

The problem for people who don't like Chavez is that the people arrayed against him are probably worse.

-Arrian

[Velociryx]

Oh yeah, I know that....but that's a fundamentally different beast than what Che said.

He said (or sure seemed to be saying) that the former oil bosses wanted to tank the economy to prevent the peasants from making a buck.

I gotta call bull there.

At least the objective "trying to get rid of Chavez" has some business sense to it (even if it's extremely risky). Che's explanation does not.

-=Vel=-