Chavez steals millions from foreign companies.

[Velociryx]

Che - Some yep. Enough to know that there were prolly pragmatic, real-world reasons that the oil managers wanted your man gone, and that those reasons were the primary cause for what they did....this, as opposed to some bizarre, pie-in-the-sky cartoon fantasy that they were afraid the little guy might make a buck.

Really...where did you come up with that anyway? I mean, given that there were other, more logical alternatives staring you in the face?

Of course, I could reverse your own question....because it seems that the "evil capitalists" are the only bad guys, and always for the same stereotypical reasons, and the poor, misunderstood reds are the good guys.

Do I have it about right?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

And the funny thing is, you're STILL off-base, cos I AGREE with you. In the example above, there's no doubt that the (former) oil guys are/were the bad guys. Yes...you heard it here. The capitalist pigdogs (Kid would be so proud!) were the bad guys.

And I don't mind admitting it (a thing that Team Red could definitely use a bit of practice at, btw....you guys are typically in such a deep state of denial that it's hard to get you to make the shocking admission that Stalin MIGHT NOT have been a gentleman, much less that he might have actually harmed a hair on someone's head)

But the evil pigdogs were NOT the badguys for the rediciulous reason you mentioned.

-=Vel=-

[Straybow]

"cuz I couldn't see any other way out."

Seeing works better when your eyes are open. As much as class warfare rhetoric sounds good to people who want something (whatever "The Man" has) for nothing (come the revolution), it has only replaced "The Man" with a new "The Man."

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Hardly. Those companies had been cheating Cuba out of taxes for decades. It was just deserts. Unfortunately, this was the very thing that caused Cuban / American relations to break down.

Yeah, but why offer compensation at all. What is the compensation for?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Straybow
"cuz I couldn't see any other way out."

Seeing works better when your eyes are open. As much as class warfare rhetoric sounds good to people who want something (whatever "The Man" has) for nothing (come the revolution), it has only replaced "The Man" with a new "The Man."

We don't want something for nothing. We'll work for it. The difference is that we'll just get more for our work.

[Kuciwalker]

.

[Dinner]

Economies which rely upon a single commodity, like oil, tend to go in boom and bust cycles. Let's examine the recent economic growth rates in Venezuela.

1999 -6%
2000 3.7%
2001 2.4%
2002 -8.9%
2003 -7.7%
2004 17.9%
2009 10%

That tracks almost perfectly with oil prices though 2002 was a year where general strikes effected the national economy.

[Kuciwalker]

Economies which rely upon a single commodity, like oil, tend to go in boom and bust cycles.

Fixed.

[Dinner]

OK, how about commodity prices are highly volitile and since Venezuela relies heavily on one commodity it's economic growth tends to swing wildly in boom and bust cycles? Is that better?

[Whoha]

Originally posted by Oerdin
Economies which rely upon a single commodity, like oil, tend to go in boom and bust cycles. Let's examine the recent economic growth rates in Venezuela.

1999 -6%
2000 3.7%
2001 2.4%
2002 -8.9%
2003 -7.7%
2004 17.9%
2009 10%

That tracks almost perfectly with oil prices though 2002 was a year where general strikes effected the national economy.

I take it the 2009 is a typo?

[Dinner]

2005

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
OK, how about commodity prices are highly volitile and since Venezuela relies heavily on one commodity it's economic growth tends to swing wildly in boom and bust cycles? Is that better?

That is the history of every country which relies upon resource extraction for its majority income. It's not like this is something new to Venezeula or Latin America or the freakin' colonial world.

The imperialist world didn't invest in the colonies to build new factories. They invested, since 1492, in resource extraction. Spending money in order to cart off the wealth. That's how the 3rd world economy is structured. The only 3rd World countries to get out of that trap were the ones where the government got involved in the economy heavily [i]and[/] there was a sense of nationalism on the part of the ruling elite, basially the Asian tigers. In Latin America, when elected governments tried that path, they either found the U.S. marines in their capitals or the local military getting paid by the CIA to do the same thing.

Now, for the first time in Venezuela's history, the money they make from oil is going for the people's needs. It's being reinvested in their economy. Closed factories are being bought by the government and turned over to the workers. They are trying to get away from the resource trap.

But with your blinders on, you see nothing other than what the elites of Venezuela want you to see. You are a tool for the same people who have been murdering that country for hundreds of years.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Che - Some yep. Enough to know that there were prolly pragmatic, real-world reasons that the oil managers wanted your man gone, and that those reasons were the primary cause for what they did....this, as opposed to some bizarre, pie-in-the-sky cartoon fantasy that they were afraid the little guy might make a buck.

What happens when the little guy makes a buck? Well, it means he's not quite so dependant on the landlord or the boss. He might get the notion that he has some rights that need to be respected. He might be able to work some land of his own or have a little shop, and all of those things means the "big, bad man" can't make as much money as he'd like.

Is this some fantasy? Well, take a look in neighboring Columbia, where landowners hired thousands of thugs to drive people off of their land, taking it for themselves, to raise cattle, horses, mine for emeralds, or grow coca. And the government looked the other way, or worse, actively aided them, since those landlords owned the government until recently.

In nearly every country, the local elites have fought land reform. They violently surpress peasant associations and unions (at least the ones that aren't under their countrol). Half of all union activists murdered on the planet are killed in Columbia. But you would have us assume that those who benefit from such things have nothing to do with it, even when they brag about it.

Here's one for you. Google: nicaragua and "house of dracula". That's just the tip of how bad things in Latin America get.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That is the history of every country which relies upon resource extraction for its majority income. It's not like this is something new to Venezeula or Latin America or the freakin' colonial world.

My point being that Chavez is making this worse and not better he's beating the hell out of the nonoil economy in Venezuela thus making the nation even more vunerable to swings in oil prices. Diversification is the only way to lessen this effect and he's chased most of the investors, foreign & domestic, away. Do you remember the thread about Chavez's price controls? He placed price controls on most consumer goods so that the sale price was below the cost of production so importers stopped importing while domestic producers began shutting down.

This just isn't a rational economic policy.

[Velociryx]

What happens when the little guy makes a buck? Well, it means he's not quite so dependant on the landlord or the boss. He might get the notion that he has some rights that need to be respected. He might be able to work some land of his own or have a little shop, and all of those things means the "big, bad man" can't make as much money as he'd like.

Is this some fantasy? Well, take a look in neighboring Columbia, where landowners hired thousands of thugs to drive people off of their land, taking it for themselves, to raise cattle, horses, mine for emeralds, or grow coca. And the government looked the other way, or worse, actively aided them, since those landlords owned the government until recently.

In nearly every country, the local elites have fought land reform. They violently surpress peasant associations and unions (at least the ones that aren't under their countrol). Half of all union activists murdered on the planet are killed in Columbia. But you would have us assume that those who benefit from such things have nothing to do with it, even when they brag about it.

Here's one for you. Google: nicaragua and "house of dracula". That's just the tip of how bad things in Latin America get.



Not buying it. Any and all of the above can happen, with or without the little guy making a buck, and if it were so....if the act of making a buck was the self actualizing catalyst you're making it out to be, then your stance against capitalism would take on even darker undertones than you're willing to fess up to.....There's not some magical switch that gets thrown inside a human being when he makes money that suddenly turns on the desire for rights or respect, etc.

Further, given that we already have in-hand some real, pragmatic reasons that the biz folk wanted Chavez out, those reasons strike me as being far, FAR more likely than your cartoon version.

Like I said earlier....victim of your own propaganda.

But this comes as no great surprise....

-=Vel=-