Death penalty is damn right

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Wycoff
No, I'm just stating the obvious. The worse society considers a crime, the more harshly it punishes that crime.

Yet, the basis of this "obviousness" is the idea of "an eye for an eye" and not any logical, rational argument.

The basis of punishment is vengeance. Somebody has done you wrong, so that person needs to suffer. That seems like exactly the wrong basis for corrective justice.

The bases for corrective justice should be rehabilitation. If that's not successful with a certain person, the fallback position is to keep the society safe.

[Velociryx]

DP

Not something to be pulled out lightly, but always an option.

In some cases, the only viable option.

-=Vel=-

[The keeper]

Punishment should ALWAYS fit the crime.


Many places that "the civilized west" see as backward and having barbaric punishment have the lowest crime rate. There are many punishments that would be fitting and deterent - but they wont be used.


Public beating for instance. (yes, I am serious)
In SE Asia, caning is used as a common form of punishment. Yes, the person who is caned is hurt for a while. He will suffer humiliation (no worse than being put in prison) and possibly a little scarring.

But people fear physical pain much more than prison. This is a great deterent. In the west, the only forms of punishment available are inprisonment, fines. (and death in the US). In the US, the death penalty is a joke because it isn't feared.


Punishments need to be different. Castration, Amputation, Corporal punishments (caning, beating, etc).

And prison should be more like a work camp - not a hotel stay.


As for the death penalty - kill them.

[ajbera]

OTBOT may say you're a bad boy, Keeper, but I say you speak truth. I would love to see caning used in the US. These days many young punks think a stint in jail garners respect. I wonder how many would feel similarly about a public ass-whipping.

And Wycoff, thanks for keeping up our end of the argument. You have greater stamina and patience than I, my friend.

[Velociryx]

I think what is missing from the "anti dp" crowd, is an understanding that the killing of a criminal is hardly the worst thing that can happen to him, and that, in fact, prescribing the death penalty for the worst of the worst cases (those for whom there is absolutely no doubt of their guilt, those whose crimes are so truly horrifying as to make them utterly beyond redemption) is actually more humane that the alternative.

So yes.

Death for these.

Why?

Several reasons, but in my mind, two truly resonate.

1) Monsters DO exist, and they wear human skin. Read up on PeeWee Gaskins, one of the most brutal serial killers ever, and a fellow native of my own South Carolina. The guy was as sick and twisted as they come. He even managed to kill someone while sitting on death row (which is, by the way, no small accomplishment, given the security).

There's no redeeming this man. There's no reform program in existence that can fix whatever is wrong with his mind, because we're just not that skilled. We can't unmake whatever damage has been done in this one. It's just not possible, and frankly, I'm glad he's dead now. The world is a much safer place for it.

One less monster.

If he were unique....if he were the only one in history, then I could see a case for not having the death penalty, but he's not, and in fact, as human beings become ever more numerous on planet earth, we are seeing ever more monsters as well, and society has the right to protect itself (by ANY means) from those who dwell outside the bounds OF society.

Monsters may live among us, but they are NOT members of our society.

And it's not enough to lock them up and throw away the key, either.

Prisons, no matter how cleverly constructed, can be broken out of.

Security measures can fail.

Corruption can seep into even the most obscure corners of anything a human being touches.

Besides the logistic and economic problems of locking a monster up forever, there are others as well, which brings me to item #2.....

#2) There are worse things than death.

Far worse.

I'm a fiction writer who has not thought much on the subject, but just a few moments thought brings the following possibilities to mind:

* Utter solitary confinement for life. No light. No trips outside. Food recieved via a small slit in the door, twice a day. No human interaction of any kind. No running water. A hole in the floor for a toilet.

* As above, but with human interaction for an hour a day, whereupon said prisoner is turned loose in the yard and gang-raped by the meanest prisoners in the yard.

* Or perhaps he is treated to a daily ritual involving hooking a car battery to his testicles for thirty minutes a day

* Or bled to near death by a thousand cuts and slowly allowed to recuperate so the ritual could be repeated.

* Or stung to near death by scorpions (which I can tell you firsthand is excruciating)

Or any number of other ghastly things.

And in subjugating our prisoner to 30 or more years of such abuses, is that not FAR worse (orders of magnitude worse) than a quick, clean death? State sanctioned torture that lasts decades, or a death over in seconds?

Of course, the conditions above do not describe the conditions of American Prisons, but they could. They easily could, and it might be YEARS before anyone knew it, because it is our tendency to lock Monsters and other assorted Bad Men up and then forget about them.

We do not ask many questions about their living conditions, because hey....they're off the streets and we've done our jobs, right?

But I contend that the above torture would be worlds worse than state sanctioned killing of the very worst of the monsters, and I offer no apology FOR that view.

$0.02

-=Vel=-

PS: Obviously, the above prison examples are exceedingly different from any stay in any US Prison....which from what I understand can range anywhere from feeling like a Resort (complete with cable, tennis courts, and swimming pools), all the way to what we consider fairly harsh conditions, but which, by the standards of many prisons around the globe, are actually quite accomodating. Nonetheless, as I mentioned, it would not be so difficult to change that....

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by Velociryx
PS: Obviously, the above prison examples are exceedingly different from any stay in any US Prison....which from what I understand can range anywhere from feeling like a Resort (complete with cable, tennis courts, and swimming pools)...

Have you been listening to Rush Limbaugh again?? If prisons were like that, people would be trying to break in.

...all the way to what we consider fairly harsh conditions, but which, by the standards of many prisons around the globe, are actually quite accomodating. Nonetheless, as I mentioned, it would not be so difficult to change that....

Well...except there is that pesky "no cruel and unusual punishments" clause in the Constitution.

There's no redeeming this man.

Such an assertion would make Jesus blush.

[Patroklos]

I love Nietzsche's explination of punishment and how it related to power. Weak societies use punishment to protect themselves. The weaker the society, the greater the fear, and the harsher the punishment. Stronger societies know a crminal won;t make them collapse, so they can impose less punishment because they are less fearfull. An omnipotent society would not punish but instead be utterly magnanimous, for the criminal is so powerless as to be insignificant, and punishment loses meaning.

That sounds like something you would like.

One does not have to wait 200 years to have people look at America's norms and find them barbaric and strange.

Very true, I find your current position barbaric and strange.

On top oif that, if the moral and ethical basis for the DP is sound, 200 years, nor 2000 years should make a difference in whether it is right or not.

Comon, don't be obtuse. As a liberal minded person, you should be all about change. Like in ten years wehn all the world brings back the DP because they see how wrong they were.

[Velociryx]

Sadly, Jesus is not anywhere to be found in our courts today, which are the tools by which justice is meted out.

And our prisons DO have solitary confinement cells, and DO use them. That alone is "cruel and unusual" but at a low enough end on the scale to be considered acceptable.



-=Vel=-

[MrFun]

I'm not sure even in this instance that I could whole-heartedly support the death penalty.

[SlowwHand]

Just 3 random off Texas death row. Rehabilitation, someone said?

On 12/11/2003 in Tarrant County, Texas, Richardson and three co-defendants entered the residence of a 46 year old white male and a 46 year old white female. Richardson and co-defendants fatally shot and stabbed both victims.

On 4/3/2003 in Harris County, Texas, Joubert and 2 co-defendants arrived at an Ace Check Cashing Store and forced a twenty-five year old black female to open the store and give them the money from the safe. During the robbery, a responding Houston Police Officer, a forty year old white male, entered the store and was fatally shot 1 time in the face. The store clerk was also fatally shot.

On 09/26/1986, in Harris County, Texas, Shore kidnapped a fifteen year old white female and strangled her to death with a cord. Shored then dumped the victim's body behind a Ninfa's Restaurant.

On 04/16/1992 in Harris County, Texas, Shore kidnapped a twenty-one year old Hispanic female, sexually assaulted her and strangled her to death with a cord. Shore then dumped the victim's body behind a Dairy Queen Restaurant.

On 10/19/1993, Shore entered the home of a fourteen year old female, bound and sexually assaulted her, and strangled her to death. Shore then fled the scene on foot.

On 08/07/1994, Shore kidnapped and sexually assaulted a nine year old female causing her death. Shore then dumped the victim's body behind an abandoned commercial building.

On 07/06/1995, Shore kidnapped a sixteen year old Hispanic female and sexually assaulted her causing her death. Shore then dumped the victim's body in a field.

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/offendersondrow.htm

[MrFun]

Sloww -- life sentence without parole if rehabiliation is not possible.

And I would say that most murderers are not deserving of rehabiliation anyway -- lock them up for life.

[SlowwHand]

That's your opinion. In many states you'd be in the minority.

[Zkribbler]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
That's your opinion. In many states you'd be in the minority.

I'm in freakin' California, and even it says "Death Penalty." That doesn't mean I have to think it's a good idea.

I'm not for letting this murdering scum out on the streets again, even if they do claim to be rehabilitated. But I don't see evidence that the death penalty deters crime.

And I can't help but wonder, by us devaluing life enough to execute prisoners, that we might be inducing even more violence in society.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
That's your opinion. In many states you'd be in the minority.

So?

Are you saying that just because a majority hold a certain opinion, that makes that opinion right?

[Tiamat]

What I think he's trying to say and I could be wrong, is that scum like this deserve no rehabilitation.

Why should we as taxpayers continue to foot the bill for someone like Mr. Shore who has continued to show that he wants no rehabilitation. You have to want to change before you can. Clearly Mr. Shore wants to change and be a pillar of the community