Brainwashing 101

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Flip McWho

Hopefully to clear up a little:
Conservatism is a blanket term that only has those three beliefs in its core. Because change has to happen at some point these beliefs can't be then the deciding factor on what is to be changed and how. This is why conservatism as a blanket term is pretty damn useless as an ideology. It really tells us nothing more than people resist change. Which is fairly obvious.

Yes, and no.

Conservatism is a blanket term, and it is abused. Say 'I'm a conservative' in a large group discussion, and prepare to be asked to defend creationism even if you are agnostic.

But, no, it is not useless. Conservatism has different strains, and in different societies it is more identifiable.

Or, we could agree that both conservative and communist/socialist are overly broad terms, and neither really describe to person we hang the label on if we stop there.

However, the way it is being put in this thread by some, it is as if you are carrying the trash out to the curb. It's OK to dismiss these people now, this individual fails to agree with another half way across the world that I put the label on, so he is incoherent.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Flip McWho
Because its the governments role.

I dispute this, from the POV of a conservative.

Hey, you! Get off of my cloud!

How much and where the management takes place is what the arguments lie.

As little as possible, please.

Conservatism as history, tradition and stability doesn't say anything here except do it slowly. It's all about the how [to change] and nothing about the what [to change].

Actually, it says don't go this way at all, for a great many of us.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Agathon

I would far prefer a society that granted the quirks of human nature as something that is OK, and to be respected, than to live in a beaker where busy bodies try to manage our every behaviour.

I wish no part of your petri dish of humanity.

If it's any consolation, you will probably be dead before it happens.

But you are thinking about it the wrong way. Mediaeval people would no doubt be horrified to learn about what it is like to live in modern society. Things will look a lot different to people in the future, and the things you think matter will have been relegated to the status of superstition.

The desire to be left alone, and be treated as an individual, has only ever grown.

I doubt you'll have many buyers for your Edsel of social engineering.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Agathon
You pathetic clown.

Play nice

[DaShi]

You mean like not calling someone a hypocrit?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Ozzy, I agree that on the economic side, conservative ideologies are well defined.

I haven't heard of "classicism" (or "ciassic school") and "neoclassicism" referred to as conservativism before.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DaShi
You mean like not calling someone a hypocrit?

Ah, but calling somebody a hypocrit and decribing a message as hypocritical are two different issues.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Odin
Exactly. This is why, though I'm a socialist, I am agaist rapid, possibly destabilizing change. ideology-based violent revolutions rarely turn out well.

Yes, no, maybe.

Often the changes needed to benefit the majority cannot be implemented without a violent struggle that overthrows the ruling elite to establish a new social order - and history is filled with violent struggles.

[DaShi]

Ah, I see. So I can say that your behavior is hypocritical, but I can't say directly that you're a hypocrit.

[DaShi]

And that when I decribed a message of yours as useless, and you threatened to ban me for it, you were overstepping your bounds. Good to know.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Yes, no, maybe.

Often the changes needed to benefit the majority cannot be implemented without a violent struggle that overthrows the ruling elite to establish a new social order - and history is filled with violent struggles.

So you're claiming that violent revolution is 'often' the best method for change?

[Flip McWho]

I dispute this, from the POV of a conservative.

Dude, traffic laws are a form of management, any type of law is a form of management. A govt manages. Only anarchists advocate no govt at all thus no management.

This statement is more applicable:

As little as possible, please.

This is the [rough] amount of management by the government that should take place according to you. Sounds roughly akin to the classical liberal position. A religiously orientated conservative would disagree with you here. They want religious morals as law, this would incur a great deal of govt management as the judiciary reflects this religious moral compass. So we get to conservatism being nothing more than looking at history, tradition and the interests of stability. Which means its nothing more than an ideology on how to change rather than a political ideology in of itself

Now you get to conservative (not changing), progressive (changing slowly) and radical (changing fast). Unless you're entirely happy with the way things are now you won't fall into the conservative cauldron here but more likely progressive. Most people here view Aggie as a radical but hes really progressive. He just wants to progress towards something you'd view as radical.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by DaShi
And that when I decribed a message of yours as useless, and you threatened to ban me for it, you were overstepping your bounds. Good to know.

Don't flatter yourself, you were far more condescending.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by notyoueither


The desire to be left alone, and be treated as an individual, has only ever grown.

The notion of an "individual" as currently understood by most people is a cultural construct, not a metaphysical or scientific necessity.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


Don't flatter yourself, you were far more condescending.

But aren't all such remarks condescending? No offense, but you tend to behave in a manner that often requires spoonfeeding, especially on certain topics. I'm not the first to mention this.