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Brainwashing 101

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  • Apparently you stopped reading there . Non-revolution socialists are indeed conservative in the socialist society (or society of socialists, or 'the party', if you want). In general society, their views for society are radical. However, they are indeed more conservative than those who advocate revolution.
    Indeed. The Soviet Union had its own conservatives. It's society specific.
    You've still got huge swathes of people who are 'conservative' according to your definition and are not considered conservative by themselves or their societies. Not to mention the real conservatives, sorry, reactionaries.

    What does that have to do with anything? Conservatism doesn't lay dormant until an 'attack' happens. And of course business conservatives want to make sure that change in government regulation doesn't happen too fast. They don't want to wake up and find new massive government regulatory programs arose in the night.
    You think that conservatism is, what, a purely defensive mechanism? That once it moves over into attack mode it suddenly becomes 'reactionary'?

    That's just a semantic arrangement, created to stop conservatism looking bad whenever it mucks things up.

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    • You've still got huge swathes of people who are 'conservative' according to your definition and are not considered conservative by themselves or their societies.


      Well, of course. But I think it is hard to deny that you did indeed have Soviet conservatives in 1980s USSR.

      You think that conservatism is, what, a purely defensive mechanism?




      Since when? These strawmen are getting kind of wierd. Conservatism is about 'conserving' working traditions when society moves forward. There doesn't have to be a defense mechanism or attack involved.

      Reactionary politics is about going back to an earlier age or values. For example, reactionaries want to get rid of welfare, while conservatives aren't talking about ending the program, but rather preventing it from growing further.
      “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
      - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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      • Originally posted by Arrian
        No. The labels of "conservative" and "liberal" and such just don't happen to work very well when disconnected from specific issues.
        Liberals (in the US sense) are those who favour economic and political policies for the vast, poor, underclass. "Conservatives" is a catch-all term for those who oppose these.

        As a specific example, liberals prefer Keynesian economic policies while conservatives prefer neoclassical ones.
        (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
        (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
        (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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        • As a specific example, liberals prefer Keynesian economic policies while conservatives prefer neoclassical ones.


          What do you call President Bush then?
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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          • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            As a specific example, liberals prefer Keynesian economic policies while conservatives prefer neoclassical ones.


            What do you call President Bush then?
            You wouldn't want to know
            (\__/) 07/07/1937 - Never forget
            (='.'=) "Claims demand evidence; extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." -- Carl Sagan
            (")_(") "Starting the fire from within."

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            • zing
              Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

              When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

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              • Originally posted by Agathon


                Shame...
                Well yeah... your post does make sense...
                In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

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                • Imran -

                  Your definition of conservative is nothing more than a catch phrase for people who want things to happen at a slow pace. I'd class them as more progressive. They wanna progress towards something. Conservatives want to hold onto what already works. Radicals wanna change things right now. As a definition for a political ideology, the notion of a conservative here doesn't really describe what conservatives who proclaim themselves to be such really are.

                  I tend to agree with this definition:
                  As a specific example, liberals prefer Keynesian economic policies while conservatives prefer neoclassical ones.
                  As much as conservatives try to go on about individuals (as nye did) they really only mean in the economic sense. As far as socially they like the status quo or further repression.

                  Aggie -

                  If you could please I wouldn't mind hearing what you think the definition of individual is gradually moving towards?

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                  • Originally posted by Flip McWho
                    As much as conservatives try to go on about individuals (as nye did) they really only mean in the economic sense. As far as socially they like the status quo or further repression.
                    Incorrect due to overly broad assumption.
                    (\__/)
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                    • Well duh, but its hard to have something and call it a coherant ideology if you're all over the place in what you decide to change and what you don't aren't you?

                      The only place conservatives appear to be actually united on is economically really.

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                      • I think the problem is viewing conservative as a monolithic ideology.

                        There are a number of points of view that can be called conservative. Some of them have very different approaches to different questions.

                        The mistake is to say that 'conservatives this' or 'conservatives that'. You need to define which conservatives.

                        This shouldn't be too hard. We do the same for different camps with socialist thought.
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                        • Which is why conservative as any type of label is pretty damn useless.

                          Might as well call yourselves by whatever conservative you happen to actually be.

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                          • Not entirely useless, but certainly not as defining as Aggie would like it to be.

                            You could say similar things about labels like 'socialist'.
                            (\__/)
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                            (")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

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                            • What use does it have? Its now nothing more than a form of saying us and them.

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                              • Once again, it describes a world view where the lessons of the past are important guides to actions now.

                                Where the differences happen is in the selection of what from the past.
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