Danish embassy invaded - Part II

[Pekka]

Brussel Journal makes an interesting point:

Denmark is being punished at the instigation of radical imams because twelve cartoonists have depicted Muhammad. However, these imams created their own three Muhammad images. They have even presented a French clown as being Muhammad. Because the twelve JP cartoonists are not Muslims, the Muslim blasphemy laws do not apply to them. But these laws do apply to the imams. Consequently, these imams deserve death. They – and no-one else – depicted the prophet as a pig – the highest imaginable insult in Islam.

It's funny because it's technically true

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/775

decent article.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
OMFG!!!! They published cartoons of Muhammed, so if they EVER turned down cartoons of Jesus, this PROVES they are hypocrites out to humiliate and provoke the muslim community.

Its interesting what straws people will grasp at.

Also, concerning "our society" (the west) as a whole, I think many people fail at the distinction between the legal dimension and the moral dimension.

1. I will allow jerks to draw cartoons of Mohammed, but they'll still be jerks. Anyone who burns my embassy for it is an even worse jerk.

2. I will not allow jerks to draw cartoons of the holocaust in my own country, because our political culture doesn't permit it. This is not hypocrisy, this is being consistent with our own values, especially concerning the respect of human life and the denial/decline of totalitarian and murderous ideologies.

3. I will allow jerks abroad to draw holocaust cartoons, if they so wish. To me, they will be ultra-jerks, especially if they just did it to "test my freedom fo speech". I will criticise them for doing it. Still, there's no hypocrisy there.

The reason why this isn't hypocritical is that A) Letting things happen and approving of them are two different things and B) the bare honour of a prophet (Mohammed drawing) in some people's eyes is not the same thing as the tragedy of millionfold death (holocaust). If they claim it is, it only shows their disrespect of life.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
This may be the Guardian, but I found it interesting:

Why ? you haven't seen the pictures so you don't know wether they are "innocent" of offensive; you don't know if they are relevant - that is, is there a reason to publish them ?

Presenting carricatures isn't a question about equality but a question about presenting viewpoints.

You claim that the JP pics are offensive, but then what about this oppositional pic of the current government ?

[BlackCat]

Forgot to mention that the guy to the right is our prime minister and the leftie is the minister of education.

Thec text can roughly be translated to "mommy, the nasty bogeymen are haunting me again", and the reason of this little pic is that the gov want to introduce testing of childrens knowledge.

[VetLegion]

Any JP cartoons criticizing government's immigration policy?

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by VetLegion
Any JP cartoons criticizing government's immigration policy?

maybe, I don't read that paper - maybe Winston can tell.

[Seeker]

Ecthy, Speech is Speech is Speech.

The subject matter of someone's opinions is totally irrelevant to their right to express them. As long as people aren't posting addresses and saying kill this man it is a free speech issue, and if you goddamned blindly obedient krauts haven't learned that yet you never will.

Freedom is a 100% matter, Fred Phelps, Larry Flint, even the American Nazi Party. It's 100% or it's not real freedom. Freedom to say what you want is one of the few values that everyone should be willing to die for. I guess this is just where America outshines the Hun.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Equality would mean that calls for violence against Muslims are treated the same as calls for violence against Jews. That blasphemy against the Jewish or Christian religion is treated the same as blasphemy against the Muslim religion (in the law) That is not what Im seeing.

If you think this is about "blasphemy" to most moderates and liberals (and Hell, most Muslims) you are being stupid. The imams who travelled to the ME circulated the pictures actually published with three others including ones showing Muhammed with pig nose. If it was JUST about blasphemy wouldn't having Muhammed's picture be enough? Why have to augment it with pictures of Muhammed with a pig nose? Could it be because it is about insulting Muslims and not blasphemy?



Most Muslims I've spoken to say they are offended by how they are portraying Muslims. They are appauled at the picture of Muhammed with a bomb turban. No one is talking about blasphemy, except to point out how revered Muhammed is, which makes these pictures even more provacative.

just as i get frustrated at ones who are against terrorism, except when its directed in support of certain causes they like.

Like the American Revolution?

you haven't seen the pictures so you don't know wether they are "innocent" of offensive

Of course I have.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Seeker
The subject matter of someone's opinions is totally irrelevant to their right to express them. As long as people aren't posting addresses and saying kill this man it is a free speech issue, and if you goddamned blindly obedient krauts haven't learned that yet you never will.

Freedom is a 100% matter, Fred Phelps, Larry Flint, even the American Nazi Party. It's 100% or it's not real freedom. Freedom to say what you want is one of the few values that everyone should be willing to die for. I guess this is just where America outshines the Hun.

Quite the contrary. There is nothing such as "100% freedom" in any society - not even in the US, Land of the Free. There are limits of what you can say depending on where you are.

I am sure Canada has similar laws to regular speech as well.

[Seeker]

Are you blind? I mentioned encitement to kill. A direct threat to human life is the only limitation. I kind of thought that I wouldn't have to point that out to reasonably inteligent people in the 21st century.

[Pekka]

Seeker, if that is so, maybe US should hop on the bandwagon and keep 'supporting Denmark like many other Euro countries. To say they have is BS.

[Pekka]

There's an article about JP in the papers today.. it says JP has had a history of writing stuff that will not be appreciated by everyone.

It has been attacking communism since the days of Lenin, and the story says even Nikita Hrushtshov got so pissed off about it that he cancelled his trip to Denmark.

They also gave a little praise to Mussolini in 1922, stating it was the 'strong man' Italy needed at the time. They wrote about Hitler's success in his political beginning, but later on on the front page they published a letter from someone in the resistance, to learn what was going on, and then later on may of the staff joined to the active resistance of nazis.

If their biggest offense is drawing a cartoon, it's sad times we live in IMO, even if it is offensive to many people. It might be offensive to people who have this as their taboo, but like Times wrote it, it's not my Taboo. And it happened in here, not there.

[Daz]

Croatia hops on the bandwagon! Croatian newsweekly shows Muhammad cartoons. Protestors in Sarajevo burn flags...

Whoo, hooo! Cant wait for the suicide bombers...

This is soooo funny. Those deadbeats in Bosnia didnt even know they're muslin 20 years ago. And now they're suicide bombers. Friggin insane i tell you.
Whats next. We cant eat pork, cause it offends the turks? No travelling to muslim countries, cause as an "unbeliever", you're not allowed to set foot on "holy land"? Oh, that's ok, if you bring a lot of money with you. Good. F***** hypocrits...

[Pekka]

There's also one aspect I'd like to talk about with you guys. First off, I think this issues HAS NOW become an important press test. Offensive or not, no press will, or most press, not run a story because it might be offensive. Or then they shouldn't be called press anyway.

I claim, that most of the press that are taking a stand in 'we're not going to publish those pictures' are nothing but sell outs. They are nto doing it because they respect Islam, they are doing it because they are AFRAID of it. That's right. Otherwise they would have no reason to make a statement at all, don't feel like running those cartoons is your thing, then fine, don't. But now, many are scrawling and saying well we respect this and that.. you don't, don't kill us and ****.

That's my opinion. Nothing but bunch of sissies, self-censorshipping themselves to no credibility zone. Press is supposed to have cojones. Some news are unpopular and it's not uncommon for journalist ot get killed over it.

It's not that it's offensive and was pointless. It's that they are NOW on their knees, begging for suicide bombers not to target them or some lame excuses. The correct response is to ignore this all if you don't care about this.

Ala CNN, Finnish media, who all took a quick stance saying we find them extremely distasteful adn we'd never do that. Even the yellow media said this, the tabloids. And their crap is offensive every day, and usually also factually incorrect. Bunch of hypocrite sissies. This doesn't mean they will be sensitive when it comes to other issues, this means they will be self-censorshipping themselves because they are afraid. Ironically enough, this was the underlining question the JP had when they decided to publish this competition How RIGHT they were. Now it's not pointless anymore, it's important. This is not about being offensive, about hurting feelings. This is about being afraid of extremists who threaten to kill people if you do thing A or thing B.

http://publicfiguresbeware.blogspot.com/2006/02/is-europe-united-on-cartoons-country.html

[Pekka]

I feel this is one of them tests where if you give in, you will be losing more in the near future, this decision either fuels extremists, or fuels exremists. There's just no way to win this. Only a way to lose. That is when you give in to extremist demands. How many embassy take overs there has been on British soil once SAS came to live and killed the terrorists succesfully? That's an example of it. When dealing with extremists, you must show strength of principle. When they know for sure, that this thing, this protocol, they won't change it for anyone, then they won't even try it. If they see blood, weakness, they'll go for it time and time again.

And the whole point of re-printing it in the press is to show solidarity. You know, if you target one of us, you target all of us. Some of you claim, that they're only adding to the anger.. that might be so. But I don't think it's counter productive. It's to show support, and to say we are together, and there's no point attacking one small one, because then you attack all of us and this is a concrete show of it.

It's important to Denmark that the rest of the Europe stands next to it, and in front of it, not behind it.