Palestinian Elections

[Arrian]

You say, Imran, that Hamas' recent restraint (the cease fire, the quiet chatter about negotiation) is a de facto recognition of Israel.

Then you mock the idea that (as I put it) "having a charter that calls for the destruction of the country, having a history of terrorist attacks against the country, AND refusing to alter the charter or recognize the country is a de facto declaration of war."

Seems like a double standard to me. You stretch the hell out of the meaning of de facto for your argument, and then narrowly define it to counter mine. Bah, I say!

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

You say, Imran, that Hamas' recent restraint (the cease fire, the quiet chatter about negotiation) is a de facto recognition of Israel.

Well duh! They are talking to Isreal, have engaged in cease fires, talking about negotiations. What else do you need?

Isn't talking to the other side, recognizing that they do, indeed, exist?

I fail to see how there is any streaching involved. At all.

On the other side, Hamas hasn't engaged in any violence against Isreal for a while now (due to a cease fire they have honored). Fatah, while recognizing Israel and saying that they have the right to exist and all that, were bombing away and not sticking by cease fire accords. Can't exactly have a de facto war without any violence.

[Arrian]

Oh, ffs! Recognizing Israel's existance (current) is NOT the same as recognizing Israel's RIGHT TO EXIST (future).

A cease fire, IIUC, is merely a pause in a state of war.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

You say, Imran, that Hamas' recent restraint (the cease fire, the quiet chatter about negotiation) is a de facto recognition of Israel.

Well duh! They are talking to Isreal, have engaged in cease fires, talking about negotiations. What else do you need?

Isn't talking to the other side, recognizing that they do, indeed, exist?

Hell, declaring that you want to destroy something is recognizing that it does indeed exist. Thats not sufficient, and you know it.

The Reagan didnt consider it sufficient vis a vis the PLO, by the way.

[lord of the mark]

Has Hamas accepted UNSC res 242 as the basis for peace negotiations?

[Arrian]

Hmm, I dunno if you really want to start bringing up UN resolutions...

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Hmm, I dunno if you really want to start bringing up UN resolutions...

-Arrian

UNSC res 242 is not a res condemning one side or the other. It is the res passed immediately after the 67 war which has been considered the basis for ME peace negotiations by the international community since. The Reagan admin considered acceptance of it and of UNSC 338 the de minimus things the PLO had to do for the US to even talk to them ABOUT engaging in talks with the Israelis, much less to press Israel to talk to them, or to give them aid. Imran is arguing for a MUCH lower standard for Hamas than Reagan imposed on the PLO.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Az
if you're disapponted with someone's ability to do A, it means that you wanted him to do A. not -A. thus, you elect someone who you think can achieve A better, not -A.

speaking of disappointed, have you ever heard of a group called Dagnachash - fishsnake - POTM says its an israeli hip hop group one of her friends told her about. We tried to find some music (legally) on the net, but i didnt know where to find it.

Then I told her about Poogie/Keveret - the hit on the youth group circuit of the 1970's. Since she likes the anglo-AMerican equivalents(ie 70s soft rock), i thought she might like that. Found some interesting sites, including pics and the ENGLISH lyrics to Yo Ya, but couldnt find the Hebrew lyrics, much less any music clips.

[Sirotnikov]

To find hebrew lyrics: http://mp3music.gpg.nrg.co.il/

As for the music clips... use your favourite p2p application. If you want a spelling of the group name in hebrew, i can help.



Commenting on events: this is no doubt both a blessing and a blow to Hamas. They have chewed off more than they can handle IMO. It may very well increase the pressure to comply with a long range cease fire, unless of course some event will plunge the area into a violent and bloody conflict again.

But yes, Hamas will be more careful when ploying to attack Israeli targets.



Btw, there's no sense comparing Hamas and Fatah idscipline when adhering to the Tahdi'a, since Hamas is a highly ordered organization, while Fatah terrorists are a bunch of goons, loosly connected to the party mechanisms or ideology, and most of them operated by either their own interests or foreign agents (mostly Hezbullah).

[Az]

speaking of disappointed, have you ever heard of a group called Dagnachash - fishsnake - POTM says its an israeli hip hop group one of her friends told her about. We tried to find some music (legally) on the net, but i didnt know where to find it.

http://www.imusic.co.il/

Then I told her about Poogie/Keveret - the hit on the youth group circuit of the 1970's. Since she likes the anglo-AMerican equivalents(ie 70s soft rock), i thought she might like that. Found some interesting sites, including pics and the ENGLISH lyrics to Yo Ya, but couldnt find the Hebrew lyrics, much less any music clips.

Kaveret is also very much comedy rock. WRT video clips, this seems like a very tough task, sorry. :/

[GePap]

What ever happened to democratic legitimacy?

Fatah was corrupt, incompetent, the Oslo process was a huge mess that made things worst in the long run, in shirt, what has Fatah done?

Hamas, unfortunately, is disciplined, effective, and resilient- Fatah's long running leader dies, they squabble. MOst of Hamas' long running leadership is killed, they come back and win full power....hmmm....

Even if the US and EU cut a new Hamas run PA off, if (IF) Hamas cleans up the PA and makes it an effetive organization, and culls out its rivals throught the control of the police and all the security organizations, while keeping a ceasefire with Israel, it would become inevitable to have to deal with Hamas.

Platitudes are nice, but lets not forget that while the US and most of the world never recognized the Taliban, prior to 9/11 we were giving them aid because they were the only ones who had proven capable of cleaning out the poppy crops. IF Hamas is able to gain control of the Palestinian territories in a way that Fatah did not, not talking to them, whatever their charter says, would be nothing short of short sighted idiocy.

[Fake Boris]

That will likely be a change, they'll be really in charge, unlike the Fatah ever did.

[Dr Strangelove]

There are reports of widespread fighting in Palestine. Fatah gunmen have seized the Palestinian parliament.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by GePap
not talking to them, whatever their charter says, would be nothing short of short sighted idiocy.

Your belief that governments will necessarily act sensibly is charming.

[Az]

That's why he voted for Bush in 2004