Tragedies in Mecca

[BlackCat]

I understand why you can't fathom it - it doesn't make much sense, but from the two links I provided :

"People insist that they want to finish their Hajj in the way they think is right and you have a limited effect in using policemen to control people in this regard," he said.

"You cannot really control them by force because if you do probably you will increase the problem because you will have people pushing you. We had so many police officers today who were injured in this situation."

Dr G Keith Still described the Eastern Entrance as a "pinch point" to the whole system - one million people trying to get through 45-metre gap.

Dr Still said: "The Eastern Entrance at noon on the 12th day is a critical crush point. As soon as prayers are finished on the last day all the pilgrims want to get home.

"Even with 60,000 security forces in place, preventing more than one million Hajjis heading to that point is the irresistible force meeting the immoveable object. It's an impossible task."

[VetLegion]

Well the article I linked says that people are pretty tense and panicked each year because they know that there is a high chance of a stampede or an accident.

The article also says that people take their baggage, tents (tents!?) and other stuff with them to the stoning. How is this possible?

I'm looking at this for ten minutes and I can think of ten things to do to fix this, so I can really see ZERO excuses for the Saudis, despite your efforts.

[BlackCat]

That is because you think rational, but that crowd isn't rational - it has a religious experience. Combine that with the size and you are in deep trouble.

[VetLegion]

No, I don't think rational. I've been in crowds and I am no better than them. I'd too be looking to survive and probably increase the panic by doing so.

I blame the incompetent authorities who say it's God's will that people need to die every year. They are not rational, while they should very much be.

[Berzerker]

Darwin 1 Islam 0

[Colonâ„¢]

Vetlegion you seem to be assuming that the authorithies aren't trying to minimalize the risk of such tragedies, but they are: by imposing quotas on the numberof pilgrims that's accepted from a country, by discouraging people to take multiple trips, by shortening the staying time of an individual pilgrim as short as possible. After a fire ravaged a tent camp, they began issuing fire-proof tents instead.

And again, may I point out how few people we're talking about compared the total number of pilgrims? 400 out of 2.5 million equals 0.016%. I'm sure more people die because of traffic on the way to Mecca, heart failures and other incidents.

[Mercator]

These deaths happen practically every year during the "stoning of the Devil". Hundreds of thousands of people have to throw rocks at 3 pillars. Clearly, they all want to get close enough, and move from one pillar to the next. I believe the Saudis have actually built a sort of second floor leading up to that... um picture:

http://www.hajinformation.com/main/k40.htm

Not quite as static as a mass, I'd say. I don't think your bolded so much means that it can't be prevented anyway, but rather that they're doing their best but "God works in mysterious ways".

[Pekka]

I was in Love Parade with over a million people there, it was very hot, there were SO many people you couldn't go much anywhere, thousand, maybe tens of thousands were on drugs, trucks with dancers and DJs and music kept on rolling in the streets, in the middle of this all, ambulances went through the crowd, and no one got stomped to death. Even though people were dancing, over a million was there, super crowded. No problems.

So what these organisators say, well it's just not good enough.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Meanwhile, in the hyper-Christian Philippines, at least 18 people have been killed in the last week or so in crowd-related accidents at religious festivals.

No wonder the Jews have been persecuted throughout history: they'e clearly the only monotheists who've managed to build a world religion while retaining their common sense.

[Pekka]

So what you're saying is, that as far as parties go, religious ones are WAY more dangerous, and deadly, compared to weekend of drug driven, hundreds of thousands going wild when it's hot?

Hmm.. well that sounds about right FACTs.

[Colonâ„¢]

I love it when people say other people didn't do a good job while they can barely pin-point what mistakes were made.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060113/ap_on_re_mi_ea/saudi_hajj

Saudis Defend Security After Deadly Hajj

By SALAH NASRAWI, Associated Press WriterFri Jan 13, 5:36 PM ET

Pilgrims who ignored instructions to leave behind baggage and others who joined the rituals illegally, swelling the huge crowds, caused the stampede that killed 363 people during the Islamic hajj pilgrimage, Saudi authorities said Friday.

The Interior Ministry defended the performance of security forces, saying they intervened within minutes and saved lives when the disaster occurred Thursday at al-Jamarat, a giant platform where three pillars representing the devil are located. Pilgrims pelt the pillars with stones in a symbolic purging of their sins.

Some 600,000 pilgrims were squeezed in at the main eastern entrance ramp to the platform when about a dozen people stumbled over baggage, tripping others behind them, ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Mansour al-Turki told reporters.

Saudi Arabia appeared eager to avert criticism that it has not done enough to prevent stampedes that have plagued the stoning ritual over the past two decades. The Saudi royal family draws legitimacy from its role as custodian of Islam's holiest shrines in Mecca and Medina.

Next week, Saudi authorities will begin tearing down the current platform and building a new four-level one with more access ramps to accommodate the millions of pilgrims, al-Turki said. The new platform is to be finished within two years.

Interior Minister Prince Nayef bin Abdel-Aziz called on Saudi clerics to issue fatwas, or religious edicts, allowing pilgrims to carry out the stoning before noon to spread out the crowds, a change in a centuries-old tradition.

"The number of pilgrims is only going to increase in the coming years, so there must be solutions so that this sort of incident is not repeated," Prince Nayef said, adding that a commission would study the accident and make recommendations.

"Those who know the facts know the security forces prevented many things that could have taken more lives," he said.

Al-Turki said security forces "were alerted to the incident immediately once it was seen through observation cameras, and moved in within two minutes."

The cause of the stampede "can be linked to the dynamics of the crowds," al-Turki said, giving journalists a detailed analysis of the stampede, complete with security camera footage of the pilgrims and computer images of the platform.

Many people ignored police requests that they leave their baggage at a separate site nearby.

"So we see a lot of umbrellas and other belongings. This leads to a great deal of stumbling among the pilgrims," al-Turki said. "There are people carrying plastic bags, water bottles. ... Some pilgrims drop their belongings because they're a burden."

The stoning ritual lasts for three days, and most pilgrims stay in a tent city erected in the surrounding desert valley of Mina. On Thursday, many were heading directly from the stoning back to nearby Mecca to finish the hajj, and some carried their belongings. Others had sacks of food and water for the long, hot day.

A huge number of unregistered pilgrims also increased the size of the crowds, al-Turki said. The official count for this year's hajj was around 2.3 million pilgrims, but the unregistered participants likely brought it to more than 3 million.

Saudi Arabia sets a quota for each Islamic country to send 1,000 pilgrims per 1 million in population. Saudi citizens and foreigners living in the kingdom must also register for the hajj, and they are limited to around 750,000.

But hundreds of thousands join illegally. Some are Saudis and residents, others are foreigners who came late last year to perform the umra, or lesser pilgrimage, and overstayed their visas to also do the hajj.

Security forces set up checkpoints around Mecca and Medina to check for registration and turn away illegal pilgrims, but many elude the measures.

Pilgrims from abroad are required to come in organized tours, which provide them with identification armbands. Al-Turki said many of those who died Thursday did not have armbands, suggesting they were illegal pilgrims.

The 203 dead identified so far included 44 Indians, 37 Pakistanis, 18 Saudis, 11 Bangladeshis, 10 Egyptians and others from around the world.

Further complicating crowd control are traditions dictating the stoning must begin after midday prayers.

Shiite Muslim clerics have issued fatwas saying the ritual may start in the morning, and some Sunni clerics have followed suit. But others — particularly Saudi clerics following the strict Wahhabi version of Islam — have insisted on the noon start.

The massive crowd of pilgrims had gathered at the entrance ramp on Thursday just before midday, al-Turki said.

"At first they're not moving. But once the call to prayer comes, they start to move all at once," forcing some people to quickly pick up their bags and others to drop whatever is in their hands, he said.

The pilgrims then rush to finish by sunset so they can return to Mecca, giving a window of only a few hours for hundreds of thousands of people to perform the ritual.

Prince Nayef, considered a religious conservative, called on clerics to change the rules. "It is highly necessary that our scholars inside the kingdom and outside make rules from the Quran and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad to allow pilgrims to throw stones for a longer time," he said.

But that may not be easy.

"These are God's words coming in the verses of the Quran, no one can alter them," said Ahmed Saif, a lecturer at Imam Saudi University in Riyadh, a stronghold of Islamic fundamentalism.

Maybe they should shoot the pilgrims that carry their bags with them, in spite of police instructions.

[Pekka]

Colon, I'm terribly sorry. It was a success! NO. Something went wrong if hundreds of people die, and it seems to happen every year.

I'm sorry my event planning degree isn't yet finished end the reserach I'm doing on religious events and traditions, and crowd control is also in very early stages.

But I think it's fair to say something goes wrong every year.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Pekka
So what you're saying is, that as far as parties go, religious ones are WAY more dangerous, and deadly, compared to weekend of drug driven, hundreds of thousands going wild when it's hot?

Hmm.. well that sounds about right FACTs.

Absolutely. At Woodstock, they even attempted to protect revellers by announcing that bad acid was circulating. When was the last time authorities at a religious event announced that bad theology was circulating?

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Pekka
But I think it's fair to say something goes wrong every year.

Trying to get some sort of award for the most blatantly obvious statement of the year?

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Pekka
I was in Love Parade with over a million people there, it was very hot, there were SO many people you couldn't go much anywhere, thousand, maybe tens of thousands were on drugs, trucks with dancers and DJs and music kept on rolling in the streets, in the middle of this all, ambulances went through the crowd, and no one got stomped to death. Even though people were dancing, over a million was there, super crowded. No problems.

So what these organisators say, well it's just not good enough.

I don't think you can compare the 2. During the Love Parade people want to dance and party... During a religious ritual people are excited and are focused on one thing. I don't suppose you were throwing rocks at something in Berlin.