Tragedies in Mecca

[Colonâ„¢]

The article I quoted specifies in what circumstances the stampede took place.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Colon


Trying to get some sort of award for the most blatantly obvious statement of the year?

More like the most blantantly obvious understatement. "Something going wrong" would be something like hotels double-booking, or vendors running Allah Cola.

This isn't "something going wrong." It's a freakin' disaster. There have been 7 stampedes at the Hajj in the last 15 years -- i.e., practically one ever other year -- resulting in a total at least 2,500 deaths. Can you name any other organized, periodic event with that kind of fatality rate?

[Traianvs]

@ Rufus:


our traffic is organized, with civilized and educated people in it, but still we have 1500 deaths/year caused by accidents

[Colonâ„¢]

Can you name something specific the authorithies did wrong? The love parade and football matches aren't comparable since those take place in different circumstances. It's easy to criticize when you aren't the one doing the job and it's even easier to do so without pin-pointing any errors.

2500 people compared to how many millions? 20 million? 30 million? Fatality rate would be somewhere in the low tenths of a percent.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Traianvs
@ Rufus:


our traffic is organized, with civilized and educated people in it, but still we have 1500 deaths/year caused by accidents

Okay, that's 5 deaths a day -- pretty shabby by Hajj standards, and I'll bet you have more drivers than the Hajj has pilgrims.

But you know that's no comparison. This is an organized event, with crowd control. How many people were crushed to death every year Thronging to see the Pope John Paul II around the world?

No, the only organized events I can think of that result in mass death as routinely as the Hajj are Brazillian soccer matches.

[Traianvs]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Okay, that's 5 deaths a day -- pretty shabby by Hajj standards, and I'll bet you have more drivers than the Hajj has pilgrims.

But you know that's no comparison. This is an organized event, with crowd control. How many people were crushed to death every year Thronging to see the Pope John Paul II around the world?

No, the only organized events I can think of that result in mass death as routinely as the Hajj are Brazillian soccer matches.

Dude I'm just trying to point out you can't compare all that ****...
Nobody wanted to get up close to pope John Paul II by all means!! There wasn't a flow of people there but a static mass listening to his words instead, etc

I mean once you get down on your knees there, you won't be getting up again. That doesn't resemble a pope-speech imo!

[Rufus T. Firefly]

2500 people compared to how many millions? 20 million? 30 million? Fatality rate would be somewhere in the low tenths of a percent.

What's the fatality rate for all of John Paul's mass events over teh course of his 25 year papacy?

What's the fatality rate for the last 15 Olympics?

What's the fatality rate for the last 15 World Cups?

You might be right: maybe the authorities did nothing wrong. But then the explanation is that Islamic worshippers, alone among large crowds of people, are crazed barbarians heedless of human life. Is that your argument?

[Colonâ„¢]

Read the article that details the circumstances please.

And if you insist on comparing mass events regardless of the circumstances. I went to a festival last summer where about 8000 people were present. One died. Extrapolate that to the number of people that were present at the hajj and you get 400.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Colon
Read the article that details the circumstances please.

And if you insist on comparing mass events regardless of the circumstances. I went to a festival last summer where about 8000 people were present. One died. Extrapolate that to the number of people that were present at the hajj and you get 400.

Possibly. Depends on how the person died. If the 346 people who died at Hajj this year died of heat stroke or heart attacks or even food poisoning, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

But this year, at Hajj, the worshippers killed each other. Just like they seem to do one year out of every two. Let me repeat that:

The worshippers killed each other.

It matters not a whit to me whether the problem lies with the authorities or the crowd. The fact is, that's just f*cked up.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

You might be right: maybe the authorities did nothing wrong. But then the explanation is that Islamic worshippers, alone among large crowds of people, are crazed barbarians heedless of human life. Is that your argument?

Nope. My argument as, which I've stated before, is that you got specific circumstances that are very hard to control and unless you bother too look up what kind of measures the authorithies have taken and unless you bother to specify what kind of measures the authorithies should take instead, you probably should just shut the **** up.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by Colon


Nope. My argument as, which I've stated before, is that you got specific circumstances that are very hard to control and unless you bother too look up what kind of measures the authorithies have taken and unless you bother to specify what kind of measures the authorithies should take instead, you probably should just shut the **** up.

Wow. "Specific circumstances that are very hard to control." That's something unique to the Hajj, isn't it? It's a shame authorities anywhere else in the world have ever dealt with such things successfully, or otherwise there might be a model for dealing with such things. It's doubly-depressing that this has to besmirch the otherwise untainted reputations for peace, order, and rationality enjoyed by Islamic societies the world over - to say nothing of the reputations for competent good governance enjoyed by Islamic authorities.

[Colonâ„¢]

Last time: read the article I've posted. It details the circumstances the stampede took place, which aren't a present at a random football game.

The women died in her camper, which got burned out, probably because of an accident with a gas-burner. By your warped interpretations she probably was a suicidal music fetishist, or the festival-organisers should have intruded every camper to look after flammable materials.

[StarLightDeath]

I think we are on to something here. If we turn Saudi Arabia into one gigantic Hajj next year we can eliminate large numbers of the muslim population, and who knows, in 10 years we might not even have to worry about Islam ever again.

[Pekka]

"Trying to get some sort of award for the most blatantly obvious statement of the year?"

The purpose of your reply is what? You fail, I kiss you.


Traiavns,

Trying to get some sort of award for the most blatantly obvious statement of the year?

And then you shoot yourself in the leg. People were focusing on one thing and excited

And absolutely you can compare two things. That's what's comparing is for. It's not a good comparison, but you can make it, since we're talking about over a million people freely roaming in small place.

And how do you compare two events of rock throwing? They are different too. Hey, everyone can play this game. But it leads nowhere.

[VetLegion]

Colon, you're fighting an uphill battle here and you can't win it

You say I can't pinpoint the mistakes of authorities? Nothing is easer!

1. Who let the people to carry their baggage with them? Authorities. Next time someone will take a bomb and they'll explain it by "well, it was his baggage".

2. How do you mean there are many illegal visitors that swell the numbers? Who is controling the entrances? The authorities are.

3. How do you mean there was one giant crowd? Break it up! Let people in 10 000 at a time.


Rufus is completely right. People don't die there because of heat. They die because the authorities allow it, and they are responsible. And it does make Islam look bad.