Tragedies in Mecca

[VetLegion]

http://www.boston.com/ae/movies/articles/2006/01/15/i_just_flew_in_from_mecca_and_boy/

Many pilgrims expressed frustration over the repeated disasters at al-Jamarat.

"This should not happen every year. It should be stopped, it's a scandal. There must be a way to organize this better," said Anwar Sadiqi, a pilgrim from Pakistan.

Ensuring a smooth pilgrimage is a key concern for Saudi Arabia's royal family, which bolsters its legitimacy by touting its role as the "custodian of the holy cities" of Mecca and Medina, where Islam's 7th century prophet Muhammad was born and lived.

Crown Prince Sultan Bin Abdel Aziz told reporters the kingdom had "spared no effort" to avoid such disasters but, he added, "it cannot stop what God has preordained. It is impossible."

Bolding mine. Who is that loser? Obviously this can and should be stopped. If Saudis can't do it themselves they should outsource it to someone who can. I can't believe how incompetent those people in SA are. They make it seem like those deaths are an intended part of the ritual. That's plain crazy, I don't know how Saudis get away with that in the community of muslim countries?

[Colonâ„¢]

When you got millions of people taking part, accidents are bound to happen. I agree every precuation must be taking to prevent it, but the basic fact is that it's nigh-on impossible to eliminate the risk.
And let's put things in perspective, 300-400 men doesn't even constitute a percent of the number of people that join the hajj.

[VetLegion]

But c'mon, every year hundreds of people attend stadiums and we have eventually learned to control the crowds there very well. Surely this knowledge can be bought by Saudis and applied there where it is needed?

I don't know if this stampede in Mecca happens every year, but it has caught my ear because there was one last year for sure. You'd think they would fire the guy responsible and hire someone else. I just don't know how to explain this. If neccessary each pilgrim should be led by his hand and assisted, but these deaths should be prevented.

[Sava]

Allahpallooza

[BeBMan]

Of course that he refers to Allah's will is just an excuse to avoid criticism in my eyes, but for many muslims the phrase "Insha'Allah" seems to have real meaning.....

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by VetLegion
But c'mon, every year hundreds of people attend stadiums and we have eventually learned to control the crowds there very well. Surely this knowledge can be bought by Saudis and applied there where it is needed?

I don't know if this stampede in Mecca happens every year, but it has caught my ear because there was one last year for sure. You'd think they would fire the guy responsible and hire someone else. I just don't know how to explain this. If neccessary each pilgrim should be led by his hand and assisted, but these deaths should be prevented.

You apperantly haven't dug into it. This has nothing to with a stadium where people have their nice little seat, different entrances etc.

I was in central Copenhagen in 92 the night we won the european soccer championship, and it was sometimes pretty scary. People was so tight that you couldn't go sideways and bacways - well, if you could fly, you had a chance. There was only one direction and that was the direction the crowd dictated. If somebody had fallen there they probably wouldn't have had a chance to get up again.

2004: 251 trampled to death in stampede
2003: 14 are crushed to death
2001: 35 die in stampede
1998: At least 118 trampled to death
1997: 343 pilgrims die and 1,500 injured in fire
1994: 270 killed in stampede
1990: 1,426 pilgrims killed in tunnel leading to holy sites
1987: 400 die as Saudi authorities confront pro-Iranian demonstration

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4608368.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4607420.stm

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by VetLegion
But c'mon, every year hundreds of people attend stadiums and we have eventually learned to control the crowds there very well. Surely this knowledge can be bought by Saudis and applied there where it is needed?

I don't know if this stampede in Mecca happens every year, but it has caught my ear because there was one last year for sure. You'd think they would fire the guy responsible and hire someone else. I just don't know how to explain this. If neccessary each pilgrim should be led by his hand and assisted, but these deaths should be prevented.

I don't think you compare several thousands of people visiting a stadium for maybe an hour or 2 every week, to millions deluging a mid-sized city for an entire month, providing shelter and food for them.
In either case, the risk for a stampede is inherently present, and when one breaks out, there's very little you can do to control a panick-struck crowd.

[VetLegion]

The article I quoted says Saudi Arabia only admits 2.5 million pilgrims annually. I assume not all of them come the same month?

I have witnessed a whole day religious event here which about 1 million people attended at the same time. It was a mass held by the Pope. Of course that the organizational issues were complex, but it went smoothly and a million people were able to arrive, listen to the mass and depart within ten hours or so.

You can't tell me it's impossible to manage a couple hundred thousand daily in Mecca.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by VetLegion
The article I quoted says Saudi Arabia only admits 2.5 million pilgrims annually. I assume not all of them come the same month?

Then you assume wrong.

I have witnessed a whole day religious event here which about 1 million people attended at the same time. It was a mass held by the Pope. Of course that the organizational issues were complex, but it went smoothly and a million people were able to arrive, listen to the mass and depart within ten hours or so.

You can't tell me it's impossible to manage a couple hundred thousand daily in Mecca.

Yes, but that is a different situation - at that mass people sat quitely and listened - the didn't try to get on stonethrowing distance of the pope at noon, wich is what happens in Mekka.

[Colonâ„¢]

Originally posted by VetLegion
The article I quoted says Saudi Arabia only admits 2.5 million pilgrims annually. I assume not all of them come the same month?

They do.

[BlackCat]

Strange. I sense an echo in here.

[Colonâ„¢]

My reply had more wit.

[alva]

My reply had more wit.

[VetLegion]

It's still doable. A 50 000 people stadium empties within half an hour. If it was an hour, you'd still be able to empty a million people in a day. And a month has thirty days.

This stoning they are doing is trivially easy to organize.

They need to break up the crowd into smaller crowds by breaking up the space into smaller spaces. Also the security personel need to be among the people, not idling as seen on the picture BlackCat posted.

[Sava]

I contend that it is natural selection.