What would it take to prove / disprove the existence of God?

[Ben Kenobi]

He rejected the idea of appealing to justice, and mercy, and generosity, as "the right thing to do," after banishing the concept of deity. He said (paraphrased) that those who do so are attempting to have it both ways, to throw off the authority of a God without accepting the consequences.

I believe Neitzsche says the same. It's an important point that atheists have to ask themselves, are upon what basis do I justify my system of morals, when other atheists who agree with me that there is no God, argue against the existence of any moral system.

[Ben Kenobi]

Has no one here experienced the power of prayer or a blessing from the universe if you will. I would venture to say that there are plenty of people on this board who have had some type of faith moving experience but won't mention it for fear of being slammed, but I would bet there are plenty here who have seen or been part of something spectacular.

Well, I've seen some strange stuff on both sides. I guess one of the most moving things in my life is when I was short on rent for a month, and then a friend came by later that day and offered me the money.

Another would have been the time where someone has come up to me and asked me all sorts of questions regarding Christianity. I'd be like, the first few times that happened, but after awhile I was like, ok, I know you are enjoying this.

Sometimes when I go for a walk I can feel the spirit. It just comes. Can't explain it.

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Elok


That makes no sense. How can you prove or disprove anything if you do not understand its claims? They're saying, proven or not, you have the wrong idea about how it ostensibly works and your arguments about it are thus invalid.

This is a thread about what would constitute proof of the existence or non-existence of God.

I am not arguing against evolution. I am not a creationist, as is conventionally defined. It might come as a shock to some that not everyone who has faith in God is threatened by evolution. I think the creationism vs evolution argument is silly.

I will argue against the theory of evolution insofar as it is used to disprove that God created all; the "facts" of evolution are not proof one way or another. Who is to prove that God has not used evolutionary processes as a tool of creation?

[Bill3000]

I will argue against the theory of evolution insofar as it is used to disprove that God created all; the "facts" of evolution are not proof one way or another. Who is to prove that God has not used evolutionary processes as a tool of creation?

Because it has been shown that it is not necessary for there to be intelligence behind evolution. It may be possible, but then again, it may also be possible that god is causing gravity

[Capt Dizle]

Originally posted by Bill3000


Because it has been shown that it is not necessary for there to be intelligence behind evolution. It may be possible, but then again, it may also be possible that god is causing gravity

Of course God is causing gravity.

[Bill3000]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle


Of course God is causing gravity.

So god is the force that causes spacetime to warp around matter?

Man, I wish I had room in my signature for this.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Tiamat
Why does everything have to be tangible? You don't see oxygen but you know it's there because you still breathe.

You may not be able to touch oxygen, but it is still quite material. Your lungs can interact with it, for starters.

Originally posted by Tiamat
Has no one here experienced the power of prayer or a blessing from the universe if you will. I would venture to say that there are plenty of people on this board who have had some type of faith moving experience but won't mention it for fear of being slammed, but I would bet there are plenty here who have seen or been part of something spectacular.

It seems like you are talking about confirmation bias. One does not need a religious belief to behold the beauty of a starry night sky, but a starry night sky is not an indication of the existence of a supreme entity.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
You have no evidence that life could exist without God, you have only one planet upon which life is, this is your perspective, there are many that are thought unable to sustain life.

Last time I checked, the proponents of an assertion are the ones who need to establish the case.

Originally posted by Capt Dizle
All things being equal the simplest explanation must (be accepted) as true. Given the complexity of the Earth and mankind as we know it to be, the simplest answer is creation, certainly not chance and evolution.

Quite the contrary. Introducing an incomprehensible entity does not make your answer simpler. It makes your answer infinitely complex - and incomprehensible.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Elok
Where I differ from Sartre (aside from, obviously, not being an atheist) is that he did not believe in a preexisting human nature, which I think is more or less undeniable. The existence of the conscience seems clear, and it fights social norms too often to be explained away as a social construct itself. There is no "radical freedom" from my point of view. Sartre's language itself implies certain assumptions which cannot be made in a truly valueless universe, and making your own values seems not only pointless but impossible if the values are to be anything but arbitrary whims, like rooting for a sports team because it comes from your city.

My POV of human nature is our reactions to various external events as stipulated by evolution. That is the nature part. Then you round that out by nurture, i.e. our upbringing. The society a person is in certainly has a major impact on his values.

I reckon this is the point BlackCat tried to make wrt Aztecs.

However I think we are getting too far away from the original discussion.

[Ben Kenobi]

One does not need a religious belief to behold the beauty of a starry night sky, but a starry night sky is not an indication of the existence of a supreme entity.

So you would say then that we are conditioned by evolution to find a starry night beautiful?

[Robert]

I'd say 1948 is as much as a prove about God and his revelations in the Bible as we can get.
Of course it's not perfect and of course people will be able to bring excuses etc. But I think it's the best proof we have.

For the following reasons:
1. the Bible clearly prophecises that the Jews will return to Israel in the future. (If the jews would convert to chrisianity in huge numbers, if not (almost) all, that would be another pretty good indication as well, since this has been prophecised as well)

2. The Bible clearly states that Jerusalem would be a huge problem in the end of days and that all the earth would have an opinion on it, and that everybody who intervenes with it will hurt himself. This has been prophecised about 500BC (shot in the dark, may be 200 or 700 BC as well) long before christianity and Islam existed.

Zechariah 12:3
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."

The Middle East is the center of the world again.
Israel is a special country, nobody can deny that.
It is being hated by all kinds of people and nations.
There may be all kind of causes or excuses, and of course there will always be. Some will deny God if he stands on their toes.

But it's as close as you can get.
Of course not to mention that the main reason for evil in this world is quiet clearly stated in Genesis 3, that it's because man wants to be god, deciding over good and evil themselves. I think that's a pretty good observation of the problem we humans have on earth right here.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I'd say 1948 is as much as a prove about God and his revelations in the Bible as we can get.
Of course it's not perfect and of course people will be able to bring excuses etc. But I think it's the best proof we have.

For the following reasons:
1. the Bible clearly prophecises that the Jews will return to Israel in the future. (If the jews would convert to chrisianity in huge numbers, if not (almost) all, that would be another pretty good indication as well, since this has been prophecised as well)

2. The Bible clearly states that Jerusalem would be a huge problem in the end of days and that all the earth would have an opinion on it, and that everybody who intervenes with it will hurt himself. This has been prophecised about 500BC (shot in the dark, may be 200 or 700 BC as well) long before christianity and Islam existed.

Zechariah 12:3
"And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it."

The Middle East is the center of the world again.
Israel is a special country, nobody can deny that.
It is being hated by all kinds of people and nations.
There may be all kind of causes or excuses, and of course there will always be. Some will deny God if he stands on their toes.

But it's as close as you can get.
Of course not to mention that the main reason for evil in this world is quiet clearly stated in Genesis 3, that it's because man wants to be god, deciding over good and evil themselves. I think that's a pretty good observation of the problem we humans have on earth right here.

As a member of a church who is strongly interested in Revelations (And think they know a lot of how it will go down), I must say that I think that it isn't that clear. Let God work in his own way, don't try to force Him to your interpretation.

I mean, I sort of agree with you on some points (esp the Gen 3 one). And I even interpret the 2nd Coming as soon, and think that Israel has it's place in prophecy. But I also admit that prophecy is a hard thing to understand, and wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.

Jon Miller

[Elok]

CyberShy:

1. Israel is their ancestral homeland. They have very solid ties with it and most of their heritage is built around it. They're going to want to return there, obviously.

2. The Levant has been a bloodbath since roughly the dawn of human civilization. We just didn't have CNN or Fox News covering it until recently. Messing around in the affairs of a foreign country whose culture you don't understand is a recipe for trouble whether that country is in the Middle East, the Balkans, or southeast Asia. We keep persistently trying to interfere with the situation in Israel, but a lot of that has to do with western ideas about biblical prophecy; the scriptures would be self-fulfilling if Israel was their fulfillment.

I'm not an atheist, of course, but those aren't very compelling arguments.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

because I am lazy

but I'd say that in principle the existance of God is inevitable. The relevant question is "Who is he really?" (anyhow I need to read that thread more thouroughy, - the last bits from other posters, as I forgot about it already )

[Japher]

IMO, the awnser to the question is irrelevent because by the time it is awnsered it doesn't really matter, either way.

The real question oughta be; which way would you rather err?