Sharon back in hospital with a stroke

[Richelieu]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


given how precarious the security situation remains, i find it difficult to beleive that there isnt a large body of Israeli votes who are more concerned about the security issue than the economic issue.

Then again: when has Israel's security situation not been precarious?

[Winston]

Also, if we assume that Ariel Sharon will survive this ordeal but suffering severe disability, which I'm very much afraid he will, there's the matter of sympathy votes for Kadima which could be quite overwhelming. Depending on a number of other factors of course, but it's certainly something to be reckoned with.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Winston
Pointing out that the majority of Arabs want to eradicate the Jewish people is not an anti-Arab statement.

That's what I'm taking issue with. You people have lost your minds in the PC universe you've managed to immerse yourselves in.

Rather that than whatever universe you've lost yours in.

[Eli]

LOTM:

given how precarious the security situation remains, i find it difficult to beleive that there isnt a large body of Israeli votes who are more concerned about the security issue than the economic issue.

Of course. I was wrong in saying that economy will dominate the elections. Netanyahu has a lot to gain from focusing on security issues since the Israeli public is still largely hawkish while Peretz is a dove.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli
LOTM:

given how precarious the security situation remains, i find it difficult to beleive that there isnt a large body of Israeli votes who are more concerned about the security issue than the economic issue.

Of course. I was wrong in saying that economy will dominate the elections. Netanyahu has a lot to gain from focusing on security issues since the Israeli public is still largely hawkish while Peretz is a dove.

but are they hawkish enough to want to support the man, and the party, that wanted to stay in Gaza, and clearly has no taste for any further unilateral withdrawls if there is no partner, and is unlikely to consider Abbas a viable partner? Would they not still be drawn to Sharonism without Sharon? The Kadima leaders, if they remain united, are a fairly impressive bunch - not as charismatic as Bibi, but more impressive than anyone other than Bibi in Likud - and as for Peretz, im thousands of miles too far away to "get" the lovefest for him in Labour.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Winston
Konrad Adenauer, 1876-1967, Chancellor 1949-63. Resigned at the age of 87.

Oh and Winston Churchill, 1874-1965, Prime Minister 1940-45 & 1951-55. Resigned at the age of 80.

Churchill's a bad example. In his second term, senility was setting in and his own party were desperate to shunt him out.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Winston
Pointing out that the majority of Arabs want to eradicate the Jewish people is not an anti-Arab statement.

That's what I'm taking issue with. You people have lost your minds in the PC universe you've managed to immerse yourselves in.

You're off your head. They might oppose the state of Israel, but stating that they want to eradicate the Jewish people is plain grotesque.

[Eli]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
but are they hawkish enough to want to support the man, and the party, that wanted to stay in Gaza, and clearly has no taste for any further unilateral withdrawls if there is no partner, and is unlikely to consider Abbas a viable partner? Would they not still be drawn to Sharonism without Sharon?

What's Sharonism? Can you define it? What are Kadima's economical positions? What are their political and security postisions?
Sharonism is nothing more than disaster control, without a well defined(or even existing) ideology. Like driving in a car chase and only focusing on not getting killed, without thinking on what's the point or goal of the race.

Remember that it's not Sharonism with it's unilateral withdrawals that got the Likud 40 seats in the last elections, but the Likud's hawkish platform.

The Kadima leaders, if they remain united, are a fairly impressive bunch - not as charismatic as Bibi, but more impressive than anyone other than Bibi in Likud - and as for Peretz, im thousands of miles too far away to "get" the lovefest for him in Labour.

Sure, Kadima has it's share of good politicians, but they have no platform. People know that the Likud is Right and the Labor is Left, all they knew about Kadima is that Sharon is the leader and they trust him to do the right thing. Now that Sharon is out of the game they are all in deep ****.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Eli


What's Sharonism? Can you define it? What are Kadima's economical positions? What are their political and security postisions?
Sharonism is nothing more than disaster control, without a well defined(or even existing) ideology. Like driving in a car chase and only focusing on not getting killed, without thinking on what's the point or goal of the race.

Remember that it's not Sharonism with it's unilateral withdrawals that got the Likud 40 seats in the last elections, but the Likud's hawkish platform.

The Kadima leaders, if they remain united, are a fairly impressive bunch - not as charismatic as Bibi, but more impressive than anyone other than Bibi in Likud - and as for Peretz, im thousands of miles too far away to "get" the lovefest for him in Labour.

Sure, Kadima has it's share of good politicians, but they have no platform. People know that the Likud is Right and the Labor is Left, all they knew about Kadima is that Sharon is the leader and they trust him to do the right thing. Now that Sharon is out of the game they are all in deep ****.

Sharonism is the same as Ramonism - unilaterally imposing a border, if there is no partner, while being willing to negotiate if there is a partner, and being willing to apply severe force in the territories, but not expecting that applying severe force can solve the problem.

Not to go too soft, and not to be too uncompromising.

And yes, that was largely a question of trusting Sharon to not be soft or too hard, but to be smart and pragmatic - and maybe they wont trust Olmert or Ramon or any of the others as much - but would they really trust Bibi? Does Bibi have more of plan for getting to the end than Kadima does? Does "middle Israel" think the status quo on the West Bank can and should
be maintained forever? That 10 or 15 more years of the status quo will result in a more moderate Pal leadership?

[Eli]

And yes, that was largely a question of trusting Sharon to not be soft or too hard, but to be smart and pragmatic - and maybe they wont trust Olmert or Ramon or any of the others as much - but would they really trust Bibi? Does Bibi have more of plan for getting to the end than Kadima does? Does "middle Israel" think the status quo on the West Bank can and should
be maintained forever? That 10 or 15 more years of the status quo will result in a more moderate Pal leadership?

"Middle Israel" doesnt think too much and agrees with unilateral withdrawals only when they are already decided upon. We already had a centrist leader running with such a platform and that guy is now the acting mayor of Yeruham.

Even if Kadima survives the next few weeks and gets itself a leader, they will not offer additional unilateral withdrawals, at most they'll talk in cryptic centrist slogans about stuff such as "painful concessions in exchange for peace", etc, while the Labor and the Likud will be using a more leftist and rightist language.

In short, a platform of unilateral withdrawals will fail miserably. Unfortunately.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Winston
Pointing out that the majority of Arabs want to eradicate the Jewish people is not an anti-Arab statement.

That's what I'm taking issue with. You people have lost your minds in the PC universe you've managed to immerse yourselves in.

What's worse than an outright bigot is one that apparently doesn't even realise he's a bigot...(I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you don't know wtf you're talking about, as usual)

You have no ****ing clue do you? Every time you open your mouth another stream of hypocrisy is vomited forth without the slightest realisation of what you're doing...

How on Earth can it be PC to be abhored by your repellent statement that "the majority of Arabs want to eradicate the Jewish people"? Anyone with an ounce of common sense can instantly spot blind bigotry unsubstantiated by fact when they see it - PC my arse...

[Winston]

I think you're the one who should get a clue. I didn't say it, I was debating whether it was anti-Arab.

Next time, try actually reading the quotes you provide...

[MOBIUS]

Oh you didn't say it - I was just being lazy assumed you did, it's the type of thing you'd say...

Oh dear, am I being 'anti-Winston' for assuming that?

[lord of the mark]

could you guys drop the captn drizzle discussion? Look, even if the majority of arabs support the AQ agenda (questionable) theyd want Jews to be dhimmis, not all dead. It was clearly an innaccurate statement, which i think winston acknowledged. If the germ of truth behind it is large enough to offset the inflammatory language, is about as worthwhile to determine as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. And about as relevant to the health of Mr. Sharon, and to Israel's political future.

[Wezil]

I don't watch television....

Have there been pictures of Pal's dancing in the street?