Air marshals shoot would-be bomber

[MOBIUS]

So have we figured out whether all the people in the forum who supported the sky marshalls gunning down an innocent man look like chumps yet?

[The Mad Viking]

Dave Adams, a spokesman for the Federal Air Marshal Service, explicitly told the press that Alpizar had “run up and down the aisle yelling, ‘I have a bomb in my bag.’ ”

However, no witnesses—including from among the more than 100 passengers and crew members on board the flight—have come forward publicly to back up this allegation. Instead, numerous passengers have directly contradicted it, even after hours of interrogation and prodding by police authorities in the wake of the shooting.

Witnesses to the killing relate that the extremely agitated man attempted to get off the flight, followed by his wife, who called out that her husband was sick and had not taken his medication. Alpizar’s wife, Anne Buechner, has since said that her husband suffered from bipolar disorder (or manic depression) and had not recently taken his medication.

Passenger Alan Tirpak, 31, who was seated near the front of the aircraft, told the New York Daily News, “He didn’t say anything as far as I could hear.” Tirpak said he heard the man’s wife yelling to the marshals that he was “very sick,” before hearing shots ring out outside the plane’s door.

Another passenger, Mary Gardner, told Associated Press, “I did not hear him say that he had a bomb.” She also said she heard Mrs. Buechner say of her husband, “He’s bipolar. He doesn’t have his medicine.”

The Orlando Sentinel interviewed seven passengers who said Alpizar was silent as he bolted past them. “One thought he had taken the wrong flight. Another thought he was going to throw up,” the Sentinel reported.

Well, it is pretty clear they lied about the verbal bomb threat. The Air Marshall's guessed he had a bomb. And they shot him dead because he didn't obey their commands.

One of the worst holes in training is that they are taught to think like police, but not taught to remember that they don't look like police. Without the uniform, there is going to be a very different and/or very delayed reaction to orders, even from people who are not distracted / sick / etc.

More from Associated Press:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1387695

[Patroklos]

No, it is probable that he didn't say it in the plane, which would make sense because if he had he would have been shot in the plane. If I had to guess, I would say the Air Marshals followed/covered the guy until he did say it where they promptly shot him as they should have. We we will see I suppose.

Shooting to kill is the very last option in training - the purpose of the gun is to stop the opponent, not to kill him.

I will repeat the request for a source. I would also like to see a story of a Danish police officer saying he purposely shot a suspect in a limb.

If all you wanted to do was stop the opponent there is no need to use a gun. Again a gun is a deadly weapon, so if you use it it is because you deemed the situation serious enough to warrant deadly force.

Jail is where anyone who shoots his weapon and then tells investigators he wasn't intending to kill, and rightfully so.

Now just because you indended to kill the suspect and just happened to incapacitate him does not mean you have to finish the job. You evaluate after every shot, or series if using automatic weapons, and if the threat no longer warrants deadly force after that you no longer have the justification to use you gun (deadly force). That is why you are trained to use a "controlled pair," not a "double tap" like the movies say.

[Arrian]

Passengers Didn't Hear Alpizar Say 'Bomb' By CURT ANDERSON, Associated Press Writer
Fri Dec 9, 8:32 PM ET



The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said.

One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.

Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities.

Alpizar's brother, speaking from Costa Rica, said he would never believe the shooting was necessary.

"I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security check," Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel.

Some passengers said they noticed Alpizar while waiting to get on the plane. They said he was singing "Go Down Moses" as his wife tried to calm him. Others said they saw him having lunch and described him as restless and anxious, but not dangerous.

"The wife was telling him, 'Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,'" said Alan Tirpak, a passenger.

Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.

McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back.

"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane."

Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.

McAlhany said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all."

"The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."

Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb."

Officials say there was no bomb and they found no connection to terrorism.

Witnesses said Alpizar's wife, Anne Buechner, had frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication.

The National Alliance on Mental Illness called on the Air Marshal Service and other law enforcement agencies to train officers if they don't already in responding to people with severe mental illness.

Others said Alpizar's mental health didn't matter while marshals were trying to talk to him and determine if the threat was real.

Shooting to maim or injure — rather than kill — is not an option for federal agents, said John Amat, national operations vice president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which includes air marshals in its membership.

"The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag — they had to react," Amat said.

"The bottom line is, we're trained to shoot to stop the threat," said Amat, who is also a deputy with the U.S. Marshals Service in Miami. "Hollywood has this perception that we are such marksmen we can shoot an arm or leg with accuracy. We can't. These guys were in a very tense situation. In their minds they had to believe this person was an imminent threat to themselves or the people on the plane."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the two air marshals appeared to have acted properly when they shot to kill.

Both air marshals were hired in 2002 from other federal law enforcement agencies and were placed on administrative leave, said Brian Doyle, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.

Miami-Dade Police were investigating and the medical examiner's office was performing an autopsy on Alpizar, who was from Costa Rica but became a U.S. citizen years ago. He lived in Maitland, an Orlando suburb.

Neighbors said the couple had been returning to their home from a missionary trip to Ecuador. Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership based in Towson, Md., a nonprofit organization focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness, the organization said in a statement.

David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said he thinks the shooting may prove more "reassuring than disturbing" to the traveling public his organization represents. "This is a reminder they are there and are protecting the passengers and that it is a seriously deadly business," he said.

Armed police boarded the aircraft after the shooting, with some passengers in hysterics. McAlhany said he remembers having a shotgun pressed into his head by one officer, and hearing cries and screams from many passengers aboard the aircraft after the shooting in the jetway.

"This was wrong," McAlhany said. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."

___

Associated Press writers Andrew Bridges, Mark Sherman and Lara Jakes Jordan in Washington; Mike Schneider and Travis Reed in Orlando; and Jessica Gresko and Tim Reynolds in Miami contributed to this story.

[Patroklos]

That pretty much sums it up, my guess was right. Officers only escalated when the guy gave them no choice.

Usually tarmacs/jetways are monitored by cameras, I am suprised there is not video of this.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Patroklos

I will repeat the request for a source. I would also like to see a story of a Danish police officer saying he purposely shot a suspect in a limb.

It's a bit difficult to find a source you can understand, unless of course you can read danish . The problem is that it's danish legislation and there isn't much reason to translate it to other languages.

Though, there is this site :

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe.html

where there is some description of how and what norwegian, danish and swedish may use a weapon. They have very simliar regulations.

The most precise description I could find not referring directly to the laws is this comparison of how scandinavian police forces may use weapons. Only problem is that it's written in danish, swedish and norwegian (though not in finnish - that part is written in swedish) :

http://www.politi.dk/NR/rdonlyres/6949CD11-99D1-4902-8656-7B1857907868/0/Nordisk_skydevaaben_rapport.pdf

[Arrian]

Originally posted by Patroklos
That pretty much sums it up, my guess was right. Officers only escalated when the guy gave them no choice.

Usually tarmacs/jetways are monitored by cameras, I am suprised there is not video of this.

Are you referring to the story I posted? If so, where do you get that it reinforces your view?

To me, this sounds fishier and fishier. Camera footage sure would help.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

It's a bit difficult to find a source you can understand,

If you wish to translate your snipit I trust you, I am not the leading memeber of a grand jury out to fry you, just interested

Are you referring to the story I posted? If so, where do you get that it reinforces your view?

My view is that they didn't just shoot the guy out of hand. Your story states that he was shot on the jetway after officers tried to chase him down without shooting him, and they only shot him when he reached into a bag after saying bomb. It also means that of course none of the passengers heard him say bomb, he didn't say it on the freaking plane!

[Arrian]

You don't find it suspicious? The guy wanted off the plane, badly. That's clear. What he did or did not say to the air marshals, otoh, is not clear. It sounds awfully fishy to me at this point.

-Arrian

[Patroklos]

I don't find it suspicious, as I don't see anything that points to wrong doing.

I would like to see more details.

[Arrian]

I'm generally suspicious of stuff like this, but I absolutely agree with you re: details. I hope the marshalls did act correctly - and if the guy said he had a bomb and refused to stand down, they did.

The trouble is I'm not sure what additional details are going to come out. It happened on the jetway... even if there is video, there probably isn't sound. Unless the guy was looking at a camera and saying "I've got a bomb!" or, alternatively, just running and not saying anything (clearly, on film), we don't really learn much, do we?

-Arrian

[Dis]

as I've said. Passengers can protect the plane. Sure it won't protect against bombs. But that's what the x-ray scanners are supposed to be for.

http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news...=22100441&qs=1;bp=t

[The Mad Viking]

Well, since we're speculating...

I cannot imagine what would make a bi-polar Christian Missionary tell two armed men yelling at him to lay down, that he had a bomb, and then reach into his bag.

I can easily imagine, that a panicking bipolar man might not respond promptly to instructions yelled at him by a man in a Hawaiin shirt.

I can easily imagine an Air Marshall or two being startled by a panicked man rushing off an airplane shortly before take-off, and being alarmed by him not responding to their authoritative instructions.

And one pulling a trigger, perhaps inadvertently. Which could easily cause the second to start shooting.

In such a scenario, I find it likely to very likely that the Air Marshall's would concoct a story to justify their actions.

btw, I agree with the hardliners about one thing - if you have to shoot a moving human target, you must shoot the torso. A stationary, unarmed man 30 feet away is easy to hit in the knee for an average shot with a pistol , but this is not training in North America, and how often do you need to injure an unarmed man who is standing still?

If he said "I have a bomb" and reached into his bag, the Air Marshall's absolutely did the right thing.

We may never know the truth. Perhaps the autopsy will shed some light.

If they concocted the "bomb" statement, their lie also terrorized a whole plane full of passengers, who were held at gunpoint by authorities who stormed the plane.

[Cyclotron]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
Well, since we're speculating...

I cannot imagine what would make a bi-polar Christian Missionary tell two armed men yelling at him to lay down, that he had a bomb, and then reach into his bag.

My guess would be that it has something to do with the bi-polar part. Though, admittedly, I'm no expert in the field.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Patroklos


If you wish to translate your snipit I trust you, I am not the leading memeber of a grand jury out to fry you, just interested

Ok, but you'll have to wait - damn RL are interferring; out of town the next couple of days, then christmas party at the company friday wich means I'm toast most of saturday (start at 1300 and usually ends at 0400 and I'm not getting younger )