Narnia movie

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
There's Christian allegory in LOTR?

The Elves were tempted (back in the second age) by Sauron to make the rings with him. Sauron making the one, and the Elves despairing over it, was like the departure from Eden. All speaking creatures have suffered ever since. As the 3rd age draws to an end, the final victory of Satan (oops Sauron) is at hand. But one being, is willing to suffer for the salvation of all. Frodo of the shire bears the burden of all. He resists many temptations. His body is marked with the scars of his suffering. He accepts his end on Mt Doom. He is restored to life at the Cormallen fields. But he cant stay long, and departs Middle Earth.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Seeker
I think Tolkien 'doth protest too much' about allegory his books are loaded with it.

The Hobbit
Hobbits=English country squires from Devon
Shire= Tolkiens country boyhood home in south africa
'the Hobbit' goblins= WW1 germans ('goblins were always very good at making weapons and engines of death, as they are to this day')
Dwarves= Jews (they need to get redeemed by the christian hobbits)

Yup. Erebor is Zion, and Smaug is the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The Wood elves are Arabs. Thorin is David Ben Gurion, Dain is Moshe Dayan (note the name!) and Gimli is Ariel Sharon. Gimlis growing friendship with Legolas is the reconciliation between the pragmatist Sharon and moderate, pro-democracy Arabs.

Very farsighted he was, JRR Tolkien.

[BillyBud]

Good literature means it is open to many different interpretations.

Some of these interpretations may/or may not have been intended by the books' authors...

Even so, often gifted writers will wind up including some meanings within their books, even if it is on a subconscious level...

We are, after all, products of our environments, our friends, what we read, see, and hear around us...

Tolkien was a war veteran and a professor who spent a lifetime being engrossed in history, mythology, languages and the Bible...

The Lord of the Rings is the result of that lifetime of knowledge and thought...

The Lord of the Rings is a massive, multi-layered book, the pages of which, can be peeled back like the layers on an onion, revealing meanings here and there, on a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle levels....

This is what makes a book a classic....

And I think this is what Tolkien intended for his books - that they are rich and textured and are full of meaning, even though he denies (with a wink and a smile) that they have such meaning...

[The diplomat]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But one being, is willing to suffer for the salvation of all. Frodo of the shire bears the burden of all. He resists many temptations. His body is marked with the scars of his suffering. He accepts his end on Mt Doom. He is restored to life at the Cormallen fields. But he cant stay long, and departs Middle Earth.

Well, if Frodo is an image of Christ at his first coming, suffering for the sins of the world, then I would think that Aragorn is an image of Christ at his second coming, the victorious king who defeats Satan (Sauron) and brings peace to the whole world.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The diplomat


Well, if Frodo is an image of Christ at his first coming, suffering for the sins of the world, then I would think that Aragorn is an image of Christ at his second coming, the victorious king who defeats Satan (Sauron) and brings peace to the whole world.

yeah, I can see that. But of course I see Aragorn allegorically slightly differently.

The Numenoreans, returning to middle earth under the leadership of Elendil, found a mightly kingdom. It quickly is divided into two. The two kingdoms are sometimes rivals, sometimes fraternal. The legitimate line quickly dissapears from view in the North, but survives somewhat longer in the South. Finally it disappears from view throughout middle earth. But men never forget it, and long for its return, though its time cannot be predicted. The heir of the line arrives at a time of struggle, death and darkness. He is NOT an immortal - he IS pious toward the Valar - he is a mortal man who restores the right order of the world.

IE Aragorn is the Jewish messiah, the heir of the Davidic line. Arnor is Israel/Samaria, Gondor is Judea. Denethors fear of Aragorn is much like the Hasmoneans attitude toward Davidic claimants. (and Elendil is both David and Moses - the disadvantage of this, of course, is that Numemor itself becomes Egypt! but then note - Ar Pharazon - Pharoah!)

[lord of the mark]

alternatively the Elves (or at least the Noldor) are the Jews.

Consistent imagery of exile, homeland, and return. Passing before the age of men (of Christians?) Torn between love for what theyve made in Middle Earth (the accomplishment of Galut?) and the recognition that return to the homeland is willed by the Valar.

[Last Conformist]

Not being allegory != not having meaning

[Seeker]

"Gimli is Ariel Sharon. Gimlis growing friendship with Legolas is the reconciliation between the pragmatist Sharon and moderate, pro-democracy Arabs."

near sig-worthy...Gimli IS Sharon!!

Seriously I think that the Silmarillion was Tolkien's subconscious attempt to 'repair' the 'mistake' of Paradise Lost and make Satan a less sympathetic and interesting character.

It's Paradise Lost where we actually care about the 'good guys' at all.

[Last Conformist]

I'm starting to think I should read Paradise Lost one day.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
I'm starting to think I should read Paradise Lost one day.

The Devil gets the best lines.


My sympathies were all with him.

[Vesayen]

OKAY man that movie sucked, a few particular complaints…..

What the hell is the moral of this movie? The “prophecy”. Are they saying monarchies are inherently moral? That its good to give up their freedom to complete strangers? That some unknowable authority gives a divine mandate to rule?

They gave up their freedom to these four children for WHAT? What the hell made THEM so deserving?

Hell, what did they do to WIN the fight! They didn’t do particularly well in battle and resurrecting half the army at the “perfect” moment was something Aslan did, not the kids.

So what the hell is the point? These children magically become the government without doing anything to merit it.



My next complaint is the sanctity of human consciousness….. what exactly does the end of the movie say about the sanctity of human consciousness? Most of us hold the idea that our experiences are most, if not all of what makes us, “us”. So they can magically transition from having lived about oh… 25 years, to being young children again? Hell, what about the youngest girl, who was what, 5 or 6? This makes a mockery of the idea of a human mind.


Oh yeah, the plot sucked and the battle totally ripped off the tolkien…. I was waiting for
Aslan to scream “Muster the Rohirum!” as he started blowing on statues.

Don’t forget, Aslan died for your sins!


I want my money and 2 hours of my life back.

[Kuciwalker]

Saw it last night. I really enjoyed the movie nice and pretty accurate to the books, IIRC (haven't read them for a few years).

What the hell is the moral of this movie? The “prophecy”. Are they saying monarchies are inherently moral? That its good to give up their freedom to complete strangers? That some unknowable authority gives a divine mandate to rule?

[Vesayen]

Stop banging your head. They were made the "state" and did nothing to merit it. What does this say about the value of liberty?

[Kuciwalker]

You make baby Jebus cry.

[The Mad Monk]

What the hell made THEM so deserving?

Exactly. They did nothing to deserve it, and in point of fact worked against it in several ways. Only Aslan had the power to save the day, and they reaped the rewards only because he willed it.

In other words, a straight-up allegory of the Doctrine of Salvation.