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  • Clemency for Tookie?

    Stanley "Tookie" Williams was convicted of 4 murders in California and his date with the Grim Reaper grows near. But alot of people want the Guv to grant him clemency based on allegations the trial was less than conclusive and the work Williams has done since in jail, 9 books, etc., to reduce violence.

    If he's guilty I wouldn't be too upset at his demise but that "if" doesn't make me feel too comfortable. "If" he's innocent and we kill him, negligent homicide is still a sin in my book. It's bad enough we cage people who are innocent without making our sin worse by killing them, but is there additional reason for clemency? Redemption? If he is working to redeem himself, assuming he is guilty of course, should we allow the process to continue?

    It would appear that he is a positive force now inspite of what he may have been and killing him would kinda defeat the notion of "rehabilitation" which is a stated goal of the legal system. How far would you go? What if Saddam was allowed a decade to redeem himself and by all appearances did so? Clemency for him too?

    Since I think much of life is about sin and redemption, I lean toward clemency. We see plenty of sin and not enough redemption... But if he's guilty, he murdered 4 people! Letting him live at all seems unfair to his victims, he'd likely be dead if they had successfully defended themselves.

    On a sidenote, I was watching the actor Mike Farrell (MASH) debate this with Sean Hannity and Hannity pointed out how many of those opposed to the death penalty are pro choice on abortion. Is that hypocrisy? Opposing the death penalty means opposing the state killing people, for hypocrisy to apply the DP opponent would have to support the state aborting people, true? And on another level babies cannot be compared to people convicted of murder.
    And yet many people dismiss pro lifers who support the DP based on the rationale that killing a murderer means one cannot be pro life.

  • #2
    Berzerker you are a hypocrite!!!


    LOL just kidding I remember the old battles we used to have but you're my dawg now DONT GET IT TWISTED.
    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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    • #3
      Well, it's more than likely he's guilty of other shootings if not for the 4 murders in question.

      However, I don't believe in DP, so yes, clemency for Tookie.
      In da butt.
      "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
      THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
      "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

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      • #4
        Death Penalty is a tough one for me

        On the whole I am opposed to it, it's not a deterrent, and is strictly a punishment based option

        Alot of it is leftover from the old slave days when death was used as a penalty to the slaves for disobeying their masters

        On top of that it is a racist penalty that unfairly works against blacks

        But then there are cases like Jeffrey Dahmer, and other serial killers who I believe are possessed by sheer evil and need to be destroyed
        We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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        • #5
          I dont know enough about the case to judge his guilt, but he never admitted committing the crimes. How can you redeem yourself if you wont admit the sin? Thats what confession is all about. On the other hand, if you're innocent what can you admit? That you're innocent? Thats kind of a catch-22, a jury of 12 say you're guilty and you are innocent. So in order to gain clemency for a crime you did not commit, you must admit guilt? Its kinda like torture - tell em what they want to hear.

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          • #6
            Ted, right but folks like Dahmer are clearly insane. I don't know how they determine what is insane and what is legally sane, but I think it's a no brainer that folks like Dahmer are pretty much insane. Looney prison for the rest of their lives.
            In da butt.
            "Do not worry if others do not understand you. Instead worry if you do not understand others." - Confucius
            THE UNDEFEATED SUPERCITIZEN w:4 t:2 l:1 (DON'T ASK!)
            "God is dead" - Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" - God.

            Comment


            • #7
              he got clemency

              edit: Lovitt, the guy who was gonna be #1000
              "Everything for the State, nothing against the State, nothing outside the State" - Benito Mussolini

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              • #8
                I'd give him life in prison because I oppose the DP.

                I don't give a **** how many children's books some guy in jail has written. Heck, maybe next they'll bring up his Sincere Conversion to Our Lord Jesus Christ or something.
                "Wait a minute..this isn''t FAUX dive, it's just a DIVE!"
                "...Mangy dog staggering about, looking vainly for a place to die."
                "sauna stories? There are no 'sauna stories'.. I mean.. sauna is sauna. You do by the laws of sauna." -P.

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                • #9
                  I saw a movie about this guy so I'm 1/2% better informed on it than the rest of you

                  Tookie is the founder of a violent street gang in Los Angeles (the crips). He's been in prison for 20-25 years now IIRC, and after not fitting in in the 1980s, he reformed in the 1990s--I'm not sure if he used the "I found Jesus" line, but he hasn't had a behavioral infraction in prison since 1993, has spoken out against gang violence, apologized for the formation of gangs, brokered a peace agreement between two gangs, and yes, written childrens books.

                  Four murders is no light thing, but it's obvious he has been cured. Life in prison
                  meet the new boss, same as the old boss

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                  • #10
                    Re: Clemency for Tookie?

                    Originally posted by Berzerker
                    Redemption? If he is working to redeem himself, assuming he is guilty of course, should we allow the process to continue?
                    Uhm, after Tookie supposedly quit the Crips (the "organization" he founded), he was stabbed by another inmate in what prison officials believed was a fight over who would lead the Crips. Who gives a **** how many children's books he's written? The message that clemency would send is that you can kill innocent people and be a star. An execution would send the message that killing innocent people requires you pay the price.
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • #11
                      Re: Re: Clemency for Tookie?

                      Originally posted by DinoDoc
                      Uhm, after Tookie supposedly quit the Crips (the "organization" he founded), he was stabbed by another inmate in what prison officials believed was a fight over who would lead the Crips. Who gives a **** how many children's books he's written? The message that clemency would send is that you can kill innocent people and be a star. An execution would send the message that killing innocent people requires you pay the price.
                      So you think that the death penalty is an effective deterrent I take it?

                      Also, I'm not too familiar with the particulars of the case itself, so who did he kill? I get the feeling that it wasn't necessarily four innocent bystanders, which makes it ever so slightly better (and let's be honest, not all life is the same, killing a drug runner is not the same as killing little Timmy down the street, and maybe it's better that way), right?
                      Who wants DVDs? Good prices! I swear!

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                      • #12
                        Re: Re: Re: Clemency for Tookie?

                        Originally posted by Mao
                        Also, I'm not too familiar with the particulars of the case itself, so who did he kill? I get the feeling that it wasn't necessarily four innocent bystanders, which makes it ever so slightly better (and let's be honest, not all life is the same, killing a drug runner is not the same as killing little Timmy down the street, and maybe it's better that way), right?
                        He was convicted of killing Albert Owens, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yee Chen Lin. Owens was a teen-age clerk at a 7-11 convenience store, shot twice in the back of the head as he lay unarmed on the floor during a hold-up. The Yangs were immigrants who, along with their daughter Yee Chen Lin, were gunned down during a motel robbery two weeks after Owens died. You tell me if they weren't necessarily four innocent bystanders.
                        I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                        For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                        • #13
                          On a sidenote, I was watching the actor Mike Farrell (MASH) debate this with Sean Hannity and Hannity pointed out how many of those opposed to the death penalty are pro choice on abortion. Is that hypocrisy? Opposing the death penalty means opposing the state killing people, for hypocrisy to apply the DP opponent would have to support the state aborting people, true?


                          No, because a fetus isn't a person or at least if one believes that, it isn't hypocrisy.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Clemency for Tookie?

                            Originally posted by DinoDoc
                            He was convicted of killing Albert Owens, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yee Chen Lin. Owens was a teen-age clerk at a 7-11 convenience store, shot twice in the back of the head as he lay unarmed on the floor during a hold-up. The Yangs were immigrants who, along with their daughter Yee Chen Lin, were gunned down during a motel robbery two weeks after Owens died. You tell me if they weren't necessarily four innocent bystanders.
                            Ah, OK. I stand corrected then. It's hard to forgive that, but the question of the death penalty itself still lingers. You believe that it acts as a deterrent, right?
                            Who wants DVDs? Good prices! I swear!

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                            • #15
                              Dino
                              Uhm, after Tookie supposedly quit the Crips (the "organization" he founded), he was stabbed by another inmate in what prison officials believed was a fight over who would lead the Crips. Who gives a **** how many children's books he's written? The message that clemency would send is that you can kill innocent people and be a star. An execution would send the message that killing innocent people requires you pay the price.
                              Life in prison seeking redemption is quite a price. He was a "star" as a gangster, now his message is anti-thetical to that life. So we execute someone with street cred and a positive message for the people most in need of guidance? I dont know Dino, redemption and the effect it has on others should not be ignored. I would argue redemption was responsible for the spread of Christianity, without it evil doers have no beacon of hope.

                              "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" - Jesus

                              That in my opinion is the toughest part of his message... Probably beyond our ability, but he did say the path was narrow.

                              Kuci
                              No, because a fetus isn't a person or at least if one believes that, it isn't hypocrisy.
                              The death penalty is a state action, abortion is not. If we had a China-like policy of mandated abortions, then I could see the analogy to the death penalty.

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