The sad case of Conrad Black

[notyoueither]

And I suppose, one might ask what business it is of the GoC what the British government does with a British subject who was residing in Britain at the time.

[KrazyHorse]

The man is a Canadian citizen. The GoC might recognise dual citizenship, but under most interpretations of that status the citizen in question must live up to all the obligations placed on him by both his Canadian and British citizenship. Not receiving foreign titles or honours is one of his duties as a Canadian citizen. The GoC protested. Conrad had his chance before the courts, the courts found against him and instead of appealing or abiding by the decision (and instead of getting the British government to proceed despite the protest) Mr. Black chose to take the easy route and abandon his native citizenship.

Tough luck for him, but he made his own bed.

[notyoueither]

You might think it is that simple, but I pointed to the UN for a reason.

If a person is born in Canada, and somewhere along the way renounces citizenship, what does that mean later?

I'm of the opinion that a nation of birth has to take you if you ask to return.

[Last Conformist]

Well, I believe you're fairly alone on that opinion. Luckily.

[notyoueither]

Black is peculiar in that he is a born citizen of two nations, Britain and Canada. But what got me looking at this were some lawyers saying that if Black wants back he has to do it like any other furriner, and he likely can't due to the charges pending. I took offence to that. I took offence to the idea that pin heads in our government and bureacracy could play games with pinheads in other governments and bureacracies and screw with the citizenship of Canadians (anybody Canadian born, not just Mr. Black).

I do not want my government denying the birthright of anybody. It's too important to tolerate.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Well, I believe you're fairly alone on that opinion. Luckily.

Au contraire, there are some people at this place called the UN who agree with me.

[Last Conformist]

Too bad.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither
You might think it is that simple, but I pointed to the UN for a reason.

If a person is born in Canada, and somewhere along the way renounces citizenship, what does that mean later?

I'm of the opinion that a nation of birth has to take you if you ask to return.

Why? The UN contains no language which would imply we are under that obligation. We could not strip him of his citizenship, but once he has renounced it then why are we under any obligation to take him back? If we were then what meaning would it have to renounce citizenship?

It's a permanent step, NYE. When you repudiate your citizenship you release the Canadian government from all claims you have on it, both present and future, as well as releasing yourself from all claims the Canadian government has on you, both present and future.

Citizenship is not to be renounced lightly, in the secure knowledge that if you ever ask for it back in the future it will be granted to you. If Mr. Black wishes to become a Canadian citizen then he can apply to become one as easily as any other British citizen can. I doubt that he will be accepted due to his criminal record, but good luck to him anyway.

[KrazyHorse]

NYE, the Canadian government did not screw with his damn citizenship. He screwed with his own, and now he's crying to be released from the consequences of his own damn decision.

It offends me that somebody like Mr. Black would consider Canadian citizenship a volleyball, to be withdrawn and reasserted at will, as the circumstances dictate.

[notyoueither]

Why should we allow our government to harrass people into renouncing citizenship? This is over titles (which at this point is silly) but it could be over travel, or other more serious issue, in the future.

BTW, the UN does say:

Article 13.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

That doesn't mention citizenship, and it is meant to prevent people from being made stateless, I believe.

[Last Conformist]

If we were then what meaning would it have to renounce citizenship?

It could be a good way of avoiding the draft.

[KrazyHorse]

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Canada was no longer his country, after he repudiated his citizenship.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

Conrad Black has one: British

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

We never deprived him of his nationality at all. Nor did we deny him the right to change his nationality, from Canadian/British to British. We are not arbitrarily denying him the right to change his nationality back from British to Canadian/British any more than we "arbitrarily" decide to deny any other British citizen the right to assume Canadian nationality...once they've passed through the proper steps.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Why should we allow our government to harrass people into renouncing citizenship? This is over titles (which at this point is silly) but it could be over travel, or other more serious issue, in the future.

BTW, the UN does say:

Article 13.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

That doesn't mention citizenship, and it is meant to prevent people from being made stateless, I believe.

a) Conrad Black is not stateless

b) "His country" can have no real meaning other than "his country of citizenship". If it were to mean his country of birth then you had better take up this issue with every government on the planet, since outside of a few (the US being one) being born in a country does not grant you the automatic citizenship of that country. A child born to Ghanaese parents on vacation in Montreal does not automatically receive Canadian citizenship at birth.

[notyoueither]

He may have a state, but he still has a right by the UN Charter of Human Rights, to return to Canada.

I was not aware that governments should be allowed to screw with human rights.

[Last Conformist]

He chose himself to make Canada no longer "his country". Regrets are cheap, but he has only himself to blame.