Islamic Revolution in Denmark!!

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Winston
DanS'ed ya'.

Anyway, I'll trust leading Danish politicians from across the spectrum over some radical Islamic madman. And the BBC too, seeing as they may not have the same inclination to be as critical of the numbers as I.

Then you are an idiot.

The leading Dansk politicos have a vested interest in misleading the electorate, and xenophobia is huge right now in Denmark.

The BBC and CIA have no such interest, and are infinitely more likely to be free of undue bias.

[Winston]

How sweet.

To be an idiot.

[Caligastia]

Hmmm...according to the Canadian, xenophobia is hot and tolerance is not in Denmark.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Hmmm...according to the Canadian, xenophobia is hot and tolerance is not in Denmark.

And when were you last in Denmark, Cali?

Both are actually hot right now. That is why its such a divisive issue...

Winston, which countries did you select as predominantly muslim? Or do you have a link to the page where your data is?

(I know you're not an idiot. I'm sure you recognize that many Dansk politicians are using immigration/Muslims as a hot-button issue, and distrust them accordingly.)

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by our_man

The Taliban would beg to differ.

The Taliban didn't conquer anybody. They would never have existed except in response to a foreign invading power. They OVERTHREW.

As I said, people using terrorist methods can do this. Generally, the are referred to as Guerillas

[Winston]

These are the countries I looked up. The layout is pretty crappy, but I had to include the numbers to give you a chance of judging it.

1st # is Immigrants with Danish citizenship
2nd # is Immigrants without Danish citizenship

= Total for immigrants

3rd # is Descendants with Danish citizenship
4th # is Descendants without Danish citizenship

= Total for descendants.

I'm aware that Sri Lanka's inclusion is dubious, although a good portion of the people from there are Muslims.

Same for a number of countries in Africa (they're all included, to ease the calculation), but most of those with little or no Muslim tradition have very low numbers of people migrating here.

Could be trouble with a couple of the ex-Soviet republics as well, but again, the numbers are to low to significantly skew the picture.

Ready?

Ok...

1 January 2005

Immigrants 343,367
Descendants 108,728

Albania 12+158=170 5+19=24
Armenia 241+277=518 65+32=97
Aserbaidjan 41+173=214 52+22=74
Bosnia-Herzegovina 5857+11993=17850 1379+1646=3025
Georgia 24+118=142 9+10=19
Yugoslavia (ex-) 4227+7719=11946 3081+2501=5582
Yugoslavia, Federal Republic 26+1616=1642 37+315=352
Kasakhstan 11+81=92 9+5=14
Kyrgyzstan 0+7=7 0+1=1
Croatia 279+357=636 104+47=151
Macedonia, Former Yug. 410+1461=1871 499+497=996
Serbia-Montenegro 6+602=608 2+80=82
Slovenia 21+68=89 6+7=13
Soviet Union (ex-) 895+341=1236 221+20=241
Tadjikistan 2+17=19 1+0=1
Turkmenistan 2+6=8 0+2=2
Turkey 9729+21194=30923 14998+8938=23936
Usbekistan 7+143=150 4+2=6
Europe, not disclosed 39+7=46 11+0=11
Algeria 506+369=875 338+56=394
Angola 31+91=122 10+7=17
Benin 9+24=33 7+4=11
Botswana 8+14=22 3+1=4
Burkina Faso 6+21=27 3+0=3
Burundi 70+325=395 36+57=93
Cameroun 33+275=308 7+11=18
Centr.African Rep. 0+5=5 0+1=1
Comores 10+7=17 9+0=9
Congo 15+304=319 10+23=33
Djibouti 6+15=21 20+3=23
Egypt 783+566=1349 441+72=513
Ivory Coast 128+248=376 33+13=46
Eritrea 72+102=174 72+7=79
Ethiopia 488+388=876 320+56=376
Gabon 0+0=0 0+0=0
Gambia 185+335=520 136+40=176
Ghana 379+908=1287 148+81=229
Guinea 19+48=67 20+7=27
Guinea-Bissau 12+19=31 3+0=3
Kap Verde 10+7=17 0+0=0
Kenya 294+438=732 95+35=130
Lesotho 8+10=18 2+3=5
Liberia 35+57=92 11+1=12
Libya 53+77=130 86+9=95
Madagascar 2+20=22 1+0=1
Malawi 7+18=25 3+0=3
Mali 5+19=24 2+2=4
Morocco 2567+2372=4939 3374+661=4035
Mauretania 16+10=26 4+4=8
Mauritius 61+32=93 18+0=18
Mozambique 25+94=119 2+2=4
Namibia 1+24=25 3+1=4
Niger 1+6=7 1+0=1
Nigeria 134+464=598 58+37=95
Reunion 0+0=0 0+0=0
Rwanda 25+222=247 8+26=34
Sao Tome & Principe 0+0=0 0+0=0
Senegal 26+52=78 13+2=15
Seychelles 8+8=16 0+1=1
Sierra Leone 86+198=284 31+24=55
Somalia 2823+8401=11224 2896+2832=5728
Spanish Terr. in Africa 0+0=0 0+0=0
St Helena 0+0=0 0+0=0
Sudan 80+376=456 42+58=100
Swaziland 5+3=8 3+0=3
South Africa 269+389=658 49+10=59
Southwest Africa 0+0=0 0+0=0
Tanzania 260+360=620 69+46=115
Tchad 0+6=6 0+0=0
Togo 50+76=126 22+3=25
Tunisia 362+402=764 294+81=375
Uganda 405+630=1035 115+54=169
Zaire 71+123=194 26+26=52
Zambia 78+179=257 11+3=14
Zimbabwe 77+116=193 5+6=11
Equatorial Guinea 0+1=1 0+0=0
Africa not disclosed 51+33=84 12+2=14
Abu Dhabi 0+0=0 0+0=0
Afghanistan 1117+8263=9380 564+932=1496
Bahrain 32+9=41 13+0=13
Bangladesh 73+149=222 70+18=88
Brunei 0+4=4 0+0=0
Dubai 0+0=0 0+0=0
UAE 15+32=47 49+8=57
India 1194+1888=3082 828+175=1003
Indonesia 210+474=684 39+36=75
Iraq 5306+15465=20771 2883+2697=5580
Iran 7441+4246=11687 2270+332=2602
Jordan 495+501=996 759+146=905
Kuwait 335+762=1097 344+189=533
Lebanon 8357+3720=12077 9000+1155=10155
Malaysia 133+198=331 22+6=28
Maldives 1+3=4 0+0=0
Middle East not disclosed 273+181=454 39+3=42
Oman 0+0=0 0+0=0
Pakistan 4077+6567=10644 6354+2303=8657
Palestine 0+0=0 0+0=0
Qatar 5+3=8 34+2=36
Saudi-Arabia 30+50=80 68+7=75
Sri Lanka 4149+2541=6690 3045+556=3601
Syria 865+788=1653 1175+218=1393
Trucial Oman 0+0=0 0+0=0
Yemen, Arab.Rep 0+0=0 0+0=0
Yemen Dem. People's Rep 95+61=156 74+24=98
Asia not disclosed 44+13=57 6+0=6
No citizenship, 'state-less' 145+183=328 82+36=118
Not disclosed 1898+419=2317 565+35=600

Total ???+???=180919 ???+???=85028

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


And when were you last in Denmark, Cali?

Never.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit

1- massive immigration from muslim countries to the western world

Immigration is controlled by the west.

2- fundamentalist muslims form as a way of rebellion against western decadence/Palestine/Iraqi-Kosovo-whatever occupation

I have no idea what this means.

3- proselitism among 2nd generation muslims fueled by Saudi Arabian's wahabism

This sounds scary.

4- creation of terrorist cells and supporters scattered all over major european cities

I thought these already existed?

5- gathering funds by selling drugs, providing passports, illegal bank activities

6- terror cells are ready to strike and cause massive casualties

You have yet to offer a convincing reason for motivation to kill oneself.

One would presume, prior to taking over powerful Western nations, that the Islamic Jihadist would be able to take control of their own nation.

At which point, the desire for suicide tends to go for a crapper, doesn't it?

7- public opinion gets heavily prejudiced against muslim population, racist acts rise- moderate muslim either migrate or become more likely to support radical Islam as a form of reaction to hate crimes rising

8- proselitism increase among native population, either becoming fascinated by the new upcoming religion or just as a form of rebellion against the western world (muslim convertion rate in Britain doubled after 9/11)

So public opinion is against Islam, causing the public to convert to Islam.

9- 2015/2020 Turkey joins the European Union

Horror of horrors!

10- 2025- Islam is the second official religion of the EU

What Germanos said. Is there a first official religion ?

You should be commended for a record length Datajack post though. Even if its less plausible than a bad Hollywood movie script. Unfair! Actually, it IS a bad Hollywood movie script.

[germanos]

Originally posted by C0ckney


some time before our intervention in afghanistan, the leader of the northern alliance was seriously injured (can't remember if he died) by a taliban suicide bomber, who posed as a journalist, IIRC.

That's an assasination.
Cruel, certainly, but a far cry from the claim the country was conquered by the Taliban through terrorism.

@ our man:
Gotchme?

Do you care to back up your claim on the Taliban's methods of terrorism during their conquest of Afghanistan?

The Taliban overran the country devestated by a continous civil war, in year or so. They did so, AFAIK, by regular combat (as far as regular combat goes in civil wars) with armies of the various warlords.
I'm quite certain they didn't bomb market places, hyjacked airplanes, took hostages by running over primary schools or other such nastiness that I associate with terrorism.
In fact, as far as I recall the events of those days, many warlords 'defected' to the Taliban side to save their skin (and their loot most probably). Whole provinces changed side without much combat at all.

AFAIK, the Taliban mainly got into the terrorism camp due to their refusal to hand over Osama.

[Winston]

In short, the following 23 countries make up for a total of 246,001, which is 92.5% of the total of 265,947 for all the countries I listed.

Turkey 54,229
Iraq 26,351
Lebanon 22,232
Bosnia-Herzegovina 20,875
Pakistan 19,301
Yugoslavia (ex-) 17,528
Somalia 16,952
Iran 14,289
Afghanistan 10,876
Sri Lanka 10,291
Morocco 8,974
India 4,085
Syria 3,046
Macedonia, Former Yug. 2,867
Yugoslavia, Federal Republic 1,994
Jordan 1,901
Egypt 1,862
Kuwait 1,630
Ghana 1,516
Soviet Union (ex-) 1,477
Algeria 1,269
Ethiopia 1,252
Uganda 1,204

Notice that Turkey alone makes for 1% of the total population of Denmark (5,411,405), Iraq and Lebanon combined nearly another percent, and so on.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


The Taliban didn't conquer anybody. They would never have existed except in response to a foreign invading power. They OVERTHREW.

The pro-soviet government fell in 1992, I believe. There was then a succession of unstable govts as different factions shifted and betrayed each other, leading the attack on Kabul by some of those factions. The taliban arose in respone, not to foreign occupiers, but to chaos, and with the support of Pakistan which was also threatened by the chaos.


Terrorists attempt to creat in chaos. In afghanistan in 1996, this was not necessary, as chaos already existed.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Winston
These are the countries I looked up. The layout is pretty crappy, but I had to include the numbers to give you a chance of judging it.

1st # is Immigrants with Danish citizenship
2nd # is Immigrants without Danish citizenship

= Total for immigrants

3rd # is Descendants with Danish citizenship
4th # is Descendants without Danish citizenship

= Total for descendants.

I'm aware that Sri Lanka's inclusion is dubious, although a good portion of the people from there are Muslims.

Same for a number of countries in Africa (they're all included, to ease the calculation), but most of those with little or no Muslim tradition have very low numbers of people migrating here.

Could be trouble with a couple of the ex-Soviet republics as well, but again, the numbers are to low to significantly skew the picture.

Ready?

Ok...

1 January 2005

Immigrants 343,367
Descendants 108,728

Armenia 241+277=518 65+32=97

Armenia is less muslim than Denmark!

Aserbaidjan 41+173=214 52+22=74
Bosnia-Herzegovina 5857+11993=17850 1379+1646=3025

Only 40% Muslim.

Georgia 24+118=142 9+10=19

10% Muslim!

Yugoslavia (ex-) 4227+7719=11946 3081+2501=5582
Yugoslavia, Federal Republic 26+1616=1642 37+315=352

Croatia 279+357=636 104+47=151
Macedonia, Former Yug. 410+1461=1871 499+497=996
Serbia-Montenegro 6+602=608 2+80=82
Slovenia 21+68=89 6+7=13

Well Serbia & Macedonia are 19 adn 17%; Croatia is 1% and Slovenia 2.4%.

Soviet Union (ex-) 895+341=1236 221+20=241

Ah yes, that hotbed of Islam, the USSR. (14% Muslim)

Tadjikistan 2+17=19 1+0=1
Turkmenistan 2+6=8 0+2=2
Turkey 9729+21194=30923 14998+8938=23936
Usbekistan 7+143=150 4+2=6
Europe, not disclosed 39+7=46 11+0=11
Algeria 506+369=875 338+56=394
Angola 31+91=122 10+7=17
Benin 9+24=33 7+4=11
Botswana 8+14=22 3+1=4
Burkina Faso 6+21=27 3+0=3Burundi 70+325=395 36+57=93
Cameroun 33+275=308 7+11=18

Burundi is 10%, Cameroon 20%.

Centr.African Rep. 0+5=5 0+1=1
Comores 10+7=17 9+0=9
Congo 15+304=319 10+23=33

Congo, at 2% is also less Muslim than Denmark.

Djibouti 6+15=21 20+3=23
Egypt 783+566=1349 441+72=513
Ivory Coast 128+248=376 33+13=46
Eritrea 72+102=174 72+7=79
Ethiopia 488+388=876 320+56=376

Ethiopia is at most 50% Muslim.

Gambia 185+335=520 136+40=176

Ghana 379+908=1287 148+81=229

Ghana only16% Muslim

Guinea 19+48=67 20+7=27
Guinea-Bissau 12+19=31 3+0=3
Kap Verde 10+7=17 0+0=0
Kenya 294+438=732 95+35=130

Kenya is only 10% Muslim.

[q]
Lesotho 8+10=18 2+3=5
Liberia 35+57=92 11+1=12
Libya 53+77=130 86+9=95
Madagascar 2+20=22 1+0=1
Malawi 7+18=25 3+0=3
Mali 5+19=24 2+2=4
Morocco 2567+2372=4939 3374+661=4035
Mauretania 16+10=26 4+4=8
Mauritius 61+32=93 18+0=18
Mozambique 25+94=119 2+2=4
Namibia 1+24=25 3+1=4
Niger 1+6=7 1+0=1
Nigeria 134+464=598 58+37=95
[q/]
Nigeria is about 50% Muslim

Reunion 0+0=0 0+0=0
Rwanda 25+222=247 8+26=34

Rwanda is 4.6% Muslim

Senegal 26+52=78 13+2=15
Sierra Leone 86+198=284 31+24=55
Somalia 2823+8401=11224 2896+2832=5728
Sudan 80+376=456 42+58=100
South Africa 269+389=658 49+10=59

Yet another country less islamic than Denmark, only 1.5%

Tanzania 260+360=620 69+46=115

35% Muslim

Togo 50+76=126 22+3=25

only 20% Muslim

Tunisia 362+402=764 294+81=375
Uganda 405+630=1035 115+54=169

Only 16% Muslim.

Zaire 71+123=194 26+26=52
Zambia 78+179=257 11+3=14
Zimbabwe 77+116=193 5+6=11
Africa not disclosed 51+33=84 12+2=14
Afghanistan 1117+8263=9380 564+932=1496
Bahrain 32+9=41 13+0=13
Bangladesh 73+149=222 70+18=88
UAE 15+32=47 49+8=57
India 1194+1888=3082 828+175=1003

13.4% Muslim.

Indonesia 210+474=684 39+36=75
Iraq 5306+15465=20771 2883+2697=5580
Iran 7441+4246=11687 2270+332=2602
Jordan 495+501=996 759+146=905
Kuwait 335+762=1097 344+189=533
Lebanon 8357+3720=12077 9000+1155=10155

40% of Lebanese are not Muslims. That knocks nearly 10,000 off your estimate right here.

Malaysia 133+198=331 22+6=28
Middle East not disclosed 273+181=454 39+3=42
Pakistan 4077+6567=10644 6354+2303=8657
Palestine 0+0=0 0+0=0
Qatar 5+3=8 34+2=36
Saudi-Arabia 30+50=80 68+7=75
Sri Lanka 4149+2541=6690 3045+556=3601

As you pointed out, not relevant. Only 7.6% Muslim! Another 10,000 or so that don't belong...

Syria 865+788=1653 1175+218=1393
Yemen Dem. People's Rep 95+61=156 74+24=98
Asia not disclosed 44+13=57 6+0=6
No citizenship, 'state-less' 145+183=328 82+36=118
Not disclosed 1898+419=2317 565+35=600

Total ???+???=180919 ???+???=85028

Your numbers are off. You don't know a Muslim from a Sikh, apparently.

3% seems reasonable.

Even more pertinent to the overall issue, (though not what we were disputing) is that Islamic Jihadists are overwhelimingly Arabic Muslims. Not Turks, not Kurds, not Parsi...

[Winston]

Ah, I thought that was what you wanted to do.

See my post above for a condensation of the countries that actually matter.

And BTW, I provided these data because you asked for them, not to engage in some petty argument over percentages. Look at the top 23 countries above and draw your own conclusions.

And since you seem to have overlooked it, I wasn't too hot on actual numbers to begin with. Succesful integration is what matters, not whether 2.53% or 6.38% of people choose to point themselves in a certain direction when and if the pray to their God.

[our_man]

Originally posted by germanos


That's an assasination.
Cruel, certainly, but a far cry from the claim the country was conquered by the Taliban through terrorism.

@ our man:
Gotchme?

Do you care to back up your claim on the Taliban's methods of terrorism during their conquest of Afghanistan?

The Taliban overran the country devestated by a continous civil war, in year or so. They did so, AFAIK, by regular combat (as far as regular combat goes in civil wars) with armies of the various warlords.
I'm quite certain they didn't bomb market places, hyjacked airplanes, took hostages by running over primary schools or other such nastiness that I associate with terrorism.
In fact, as far as I recall the events of those days, many warlords 'defected' to the Taliban side to save their skin (and their loot most probably). Whole provinces changed side without much combat at all.

AFAIK, the Taliban mainly got into the terrorism camp due to their refusal to hand over Osama.

Yes, I've read accounts of the Talibans terrorism during their conquest of Afghanistan, although it was not unusual at the time; the warlords also used terrorism to keep their population in line. The purpose of terrorism is to frighten a population into giving into your demands, and that's just what the Taliban did. There were people in Afghanistan that didn't find the idea of living under the Taliban quite appealing.

Executions in soccer stadiums, killing innocent civilians - I call that terrorism. A way of showing the population that if they get out of line, this is what can be expected.

I wasn't aware that they won the war by regular combat (even in a civil war setting). From what I've read there is every indication that the government's army was completely superior, and simply disintegrated due to lack of popular support.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Winston
In short, the following 23 countries make up for a total of 246,001, which is 92.5% of the total of 265,947 for all the countries I listed.

Turkey 54,229
Iraq 26,351
Lebanon 22,232
Bosnia-Herzegovina 20,875
Pakistan 19,301
Yugoslavia (ex-) 17,528
Somalia 16,952
Iran 14,289
Afghanistan 10,876
Sri Lanka 10,291
Morocco 8,974
India 4,085
Syria 3,046
Macedonia, Former Yug. 2,867
Yugoslavia, Federal Republic 1,994
Jordan 1,901
Egypt 1,862
Kuwait 1,630
Ghana 1,516
Soviet Union (ex-) 1,477
Algeria 1,269
Ethiopia 1,252
Uganda 1,204

Notice that Turkey alone makes for 1% of the total population of Denmark (5,411,405), Iraq and Lebanon combined nearly another percent, and so on.

Nice try, but this is not a petty argument. Your whole position is based on egregious errors.

Try this on:

Country Total Muslim

Turkey 54,229 99% 53,687
Iraq 26,351 98% 25,824
Lebanon 22,232 60% 13,339
Bosnia-Herzegovina 20,875 40% 8,350
Pakistan 19,301 97% 18,722
Yugoslavia (ex-) 17,528 30% 5,258
Somalia 16,952 97% 16,443
Iran 14,289 97% 13,860
Afghanistan 10,876 99% 10,767
Sri Lanka 10,291 8% 782
Morocco 8,974 99% 8,884
India 4,085 13% 547
Syria 3,046 90% 2,741
Macedonia, Former Yug. 2,867 17% 487
Yugoslavia, Federal Republic 1,994 19% 379
Jordan 1,901 94% 1,787
Egypt 1,862 94% 1,750
Kuwait 1,630 85% 1,386
Ghana 1,516 16% 243
Soviet Union (ex-) 1,477 15% 222
Algeria 1,269 99% 1,256
Ethiopia 1,252 50% 626
Uganda 1,204 16% 193
Total 246,001 76% 187,534

Several of your top "Muslim" countries have less than 20% Muslims.

Only 3/4 of the number you are quoting actually applies.

Oh look, the number we have is actually less than 2%!