Rugby - Hands Off Black!

[finbar]

Originally posted by child of Thor
Its funny how you can just loose your game isn't it?
I dont believe all Havaks disparaging remarks about the welsh team that won the six nations. Although i think he has a point in particular about the england game.

Still for me the eye opener was the victory in Paris. I dont think it was an especialy weak French side, or even a poor french performance - they seemed in control at half time.

It was the what happend after that made me see the welsh team of that six nations for what it really was, a team that had found self belief and an enjoyment in its rugby. To come from behind and beat France in Paris isnt easy, even if the french team isnt playing that well. To do it when they were seeming to be ok was special and maybe worthy to win the six nations by itself?

I watched the 6 Nations from Oz. If you want an objective opinion, I thought they well and truly deserved to win the 6 Nations. The win against the French pretty much justified it. That was the stand out. But I think the tournament needs to be taken in isolation. England were crap for most of the event, and Wales fell over the line against them. Nor were the Irish or the Scots strong. But you can only beat the oppo on the day. The French, in the first half, were very good. I thought Wales struggled, as do most teams when the French are very good. The second half was fascinating. Did the French go off the boil? Or did Wales lift? Both, I thought. I don't know whether the former allowed the latter, but just as the first half was played on French terms, the second half developed on Wales' terms. It was a terrific effort from a confident team with pretty much a full complement of players. A team on a roll.

Now? The confidence roll has been interrupted, the opposition is stronger, and, crucially, key players are missing, making it, I think, impossible to judge where the team is. Get the players back and wait and see.

[Andydog]

Originally posted by finbar


Dunedin's as close as I've been to Invercargill. Played golf there several times. Watching the ball being blown off the green, having to walk into the wind leaning forwards at around thirty degrees to avoid being blown backwards. Still, with the wind behind one off the tee, one felt like J. Daly. Presumably some sadist has built an unplayable golf course in Invercargill.

It's Wellington that gets all the wind. An ideal city to watch pigeons fly backwards. Invercargill is just cold, wet, and full of inbreeds.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog




It's Wellington that gets all the wind.

You weren't in Dunedin when we were!

[kittenOFchaos]

Originally posted by finbar
And an interesting reversal of the situation in NZ a couple of years ago. Then, in a close game, the ABs couldn't beat England who were suffering card-itis. Then again, in those days, England had a leader.

Leicester did, too.

It was New Zealand who had card-itis...

[finbar]

That's what I said.

[Havak]

I took Monday off without warning again.

There's got to be some Australian blood in him somewhere. Will he drink till he spews? If so, that's close enough.

It does describe the entire population of the British Isles as well.

I'd've gone with Japan. Mounting it in NZ is preaching to the converted.

The decision took a real slating on the BBCs Rugby Special – did anyone else catch that?

I would assume that, having given NZ the nod, the IRB satisfied themselves that NZ has the requisite number of stadiums of appropriate size.

But…does it? Perhaps the Kiwi lads can comment on that?

They can't do any worse, can they. I don't know how much coverage you'll get, but could you check them out for me?

I saw a few chunks of it. They did okay. My instinct tells me they are the better way to proceed. Ireland weren’t the greatest test perhaps but they certainly held their own in the scrum from what I saw. I thought things went better before Baxter came on than afterwards – he replaced Fitter about ten mins into the second half.

It was a messy game but the Aussie backs are masters of making something out of not much. Mitchell is a real find.

One of them is not eligible because he once wore a black shirt

Ah yes that old chestnut. France and England play some ‘foreigners’ (mainly Kiwis and Boks) but only the ABs systematically take all the best players from minor nations like Tonga, Samoa and Fiji. They reconcile their consciences to it very easily somehow – not sure I could. In their defence it would be no different at all if France picked that Tongan you mention.

Indeed, the game has the "one more turn" thingy.

It does indeed.

Well done Mr Robinson.

Leicester did, too.

Ouch! Stung twice in quick succession! Nurse!

England played really well. Shame about the post match reaction from the pommy press.

I don’t read UK papers any more. Was it truly vitriolic?

I was very pleased with how we played, if a little disappointed that we lost. I don’t think our pack is over rated at all – it is rated what it is (pretty good, that is). Shame the girlies had all the penetration of your typical WW1 advance from the trenches.

The better team won on balance – we need backs with a little more about them going forwards.

Still for me the eye opener was the victory in Paris. I dont think it was an especialy weak French side, or even a poor french performance - they seemed in control at half time.

That was a great game. It is the game that made the Slam a worthy one for me.

All I am trying to do is bring a small reality check to Wales standing. They didn’t long term overtake England simply due to the 6N – and some fans have assumed that they did. England had a dire 6N – and are clawing back slowly. Wales are injury hit – but you don’t arrive on the world stage until you are at least beating the tri-nations at home regularly. You don’t become serious RWC contenders until you beat a tri-nations side on the road at least once. Wales haven’t done that – and don’t look like doing so anytime soon.

Wales will raise their game for twickers as they always do – and the returning players will help. I am not sure it will be enough. Unlike yourself I hope it will not be enough.

The yellow cards were all pretty fair by the way (and Woodcock should have been carded as lot earlier) – although (sssssh!) Moody should have got one in the first half too I think. Robinson must move him back home to Six – Sanderson was doing most of the (successful) grubbing anyway (I actually thought Sanderson had a strong game).

I am, however, getting thoroughly ****** off that Tigers keep losing whilst haemorrhaging players to England, Ireland and Samoa (Tuilagi brothers) over these international weekends. We have London-Irish on Friday night at home and once again they haven’t lost a single player to internationals. They really should call themselves London-Boks anyway!

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Havak
edit......

Wales will raise their game for twickers as they always do – and the returning players will help. I am not sure it will be enough. Unlike yourself I hope it will not be enough.

ah the wonderfull mesh that is the uk and its various peoples
just for fun i hope a miricile happens + the orange one comes back and has a virtuoso performance against you - like scot gibbs at his best did

Originally posted by Havak
I am, however, getting thoroughly ****** off that Tigers keep losing whilst haemorrhaging players to England, Ireland and Samoa (Tuilagi brothers) over these international weekends. We have London-Irish on Friday night at home and once again they haven’t lost a single player to internationals. They really should call themselves London-Boks anyway!

I agree - its a crazy situation, and its started to creep into the welsh game these laset few seasons after all the drastic domestic restructuring that has been going on. Its been crazy in wales - we've had international players left without a club(mervin davies for a while!), or having to play in the lower leagues(Colin Jarvis). Ok its good to shake up the very clanncentric and ametuer nature of the old order of welsh clubs.....maybe. But all this stuff as with Englands club vs country tug-o-war is not helping anybody at the momment.

I think that its something that definately harms the NH teams compared to the SH teams, hopefuly it will sort itslef out before too long.......before we loose more games against the SH sides

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak

But…does it? Perhaps the Kiwi lads can comment on that?

I think I said earlier that we would need to rebuild Carisbrook and Eden Park.

Could I just take this opportunity to point a few things out with regards to us hosting the World Cup:

A) The purpose of the world cup is to find out, amazingly enough, who is the best in the world. The purpose of the word cup is not to "grow" the game or to make it more global. They can be added benefits to a nations case for campaining for it - but in Japan's case these would be tenous at best.

B) In addition to the points I've already made on why Japan would not be suitable (which nobody had anything to say about), a nation does not support a sport, or grow it's fan base unless that nation is actually good at that sport. A nation does not get super excited and attract vast numbers to the game by watching their national team getting thumped by 50 points in every pool game they play. Lets face it, Japan, despite all their ex-pat players/coaches from NZ & Aussie etc, have not won a single world cup game. It's unlikey, despite how many world cups, yen or players that Japan get, that their national team will ever be competitive on the world stage - hence the ability to "grow" the game will always be severly limited by their lack of performance on the field.

The world cup is the showpiece for the game and it should be handed to the nation that can best carry this out, regardless of how many little kiddes from that nation suddenly take an tempory interest in the game. If you want to promote rugby there are many other medias and events (such as 7's etc) to do this, and not just the world cup.

I don’t read UK papers any more. Was it truly vitriolic?

Some of it. It was mainly the usual overpaid northern hacks trotting out their regular monotonous drivel trying to find all sorts of ground for a moral victory, and to divert everyone’s attention onto the trivial.

The yellow cards were all pretty fair by the way (and Woodcock should have been carded as lot earlier) – although (sssssh!) Moody should have got one in the first half too I think.

You are right there. I thought the ref had a shocker. If he is going to police the rules to the very letter, then fair enough, but at least be consistent.

In addition to Moody, surely Lewesly should have been yellow carded for his consistent lying on the ball, infringing and use of hands on the ground?

If the ref was going to be this god-forsakenly accurate with the rule book then shouldn't England have been marched 10m more than once, when, every time his arm went up in the ABs direction, all you could hear was incessant b!tching from the poms, who appeared to have 15 captains out there?

If the ref was going to be so precious about foul play and run the laws to the letter then surely he should have yellow carded the ‘dummy runner’ that clothes-lined Dan Carter?

Or what about when the ref impeded the All Black defenders from tackling the England ball carrier in the final minute? The English ball carrier ran straight into him and he didn't blow it up. The law book states that as soon as that happens you must blow the whistle - however he didn't. He seemed somewhat capable to turn a blind-eye to this black and white event, yet felt so strongly about the laws of the game that he deemed 3 yellow cards were worthy.

All one asks for from a ref is consistency - which on the weekend was appallingly lacking. Someone said that the ref had courage to hand out the cards - so it took courage to fold to the English media and from the rantings of Andy Robinson? Sorry but I don’t think it very courageous to hand out 3 yellows to the opposition team with 80,000 screaming fans backing him by chanting ‘Off! Off! Off!”.

As far as I'm concerned it was a gutless and pathetic display of referring, and every 50/50 call he was faced with, he took the easy way out to placate the local crowd. Not much courage in that, and not good referring either.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

The decision took a real slating on the BBCs Rugby Special – did anyone else catch that?

No, but it turns out that England also voted for Japan. Australia voting for Japan has well and truly p*ssed off the Kiwis. There's talk of all sorts of revenge.

But…does it? Perhaps the Kiwi lads can comment on that?

Someone in the Oz media also questioned the accommodation situation. They said it's already hard enough finding accommodation in the lead up to a Wallabies - ABs Test match. The Kiwis are arguing that they coped with the visiting Lions supporters, but that's small beer - pun intended - compared to a World Cup influx. I noted someone in, I think, Auckland promising X additional hotel rooms will be available before the event. Fine, but what about the other, smaller places that will have to accommodate an influx?

I saw a few chunks of it. They did okay. My instinct tells me they are the better way to proceed. Ireland weren’t the greatest test perhaps but they certainly held their own in the scrum from what I saw. I thought things went better before Baxter came on than afterwards – he replaced Fitter about ten mins into the second half.

The broadcasters seemed to think the new front row held its own. That the Irish tried to target it but to not much effect. Which is undoubtedly a reflection on the Irish forwards. Apparently the Wallabies' first scrum collapse coincided with Baxter's arrival. It also seems that Holmes has been deemed too inexperienced and Matt Dunning will replace him this week.

It was a messy game but the Aussie backs are masters of making something out of not much. Mitchell is a real find.

Yes, I managed to find the short video highlights package on the BBC website. Mitchell seems to have bulked up a bit, adding strength to his game without losing any speed. I'm glad to see Chris Latham producing the goods consistently. He's worked so hard on eliminating his defensive brain fades.

The better team won on balance – we need backs with a little more about them going forwards.

I listened to slabs of it in between the Wallabies match. It sounded, typically, like the centres were a problem.

[Havak]

Thats certainly true - Tindall simply isn't in form and Noon is a great tackler but I prefer a bit of creativity in a 13. I hope he tries a different combo Saturday.

I think I said earlier that we would need to rebuild Carisbrook and Eden Park.

You did – but I’m not familiar with the current capacity of any Kiwi grounds so could you please fill me in?

The purpose of the word cup is not to "grow" the game or to make it more global.

Look I have no axe to grind with NZ getting it – that is great for NZ – but you are wrong there. I am pretty sure the IRB has consistently stated one of the aims of the World Cups is to grow the game internationally. Giving it to an already rugby mad nation doesn’t help that aim.

I’m not editorialising the decision – I don’t give a monkies about Japan hosting it in all honesty – but it does seem to fly against things the IRB have said previously and that does intrigue me. What changed their views I wonder – how does the voting work (for if both the Aussies and Brits voted the other way I guess we don’t have a PR system? Was a deal cut with the disappointed Boks?)

The world cup is the showpiece for the game and it should be handed to the nation that can best carry this out,

This needs qualifiying somehow. South Africa were probably better equipped in terms of stadia and infrastructure – but it would have felt very wrong if they got it ahead of either NZ or Japan. It wasn’t their ‘turn’.

I did say last week that Lewis is a poor referee. Although I clearly missed some of the England behaviour you cite some are right – and I saw things you apparently didn’t that Lewis also did not call (I was aiming my radar the other way of course). I wouldn’t say he lacked consistency as he was consistently poor – and I certainly wouldn’t say he was courageous (sounds like Stephen Jones type nonsense journalism to me). I will say that every card given was justified though – because they were.

An Irishman pandering to the Twickenham crowd? Do you really believe that? I certainly don’t. He made some very poor calls for us in the NZ 22 if he was on the payroll.

Dawson is a pain in the butt for whining to refs and should be slapped for it – but how you mistook him for 13 of his team mates I have no idea. Only he and Corry were on at the ref ‘constantly’ – and only the latter should have been.

Matt Dunning will replace him this week.

Crikey the Welsh hair bears will be relieved!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak

I am, however, getting thoroughly ****** off that Tigers keep losing whilst haemorrhaging players to England, Ireland and Samoa (Tuilagi brothers) over these international weekends. We have London-Irish on Friday night at home and once again they haven’t lost a single player to internationals. They really should call themselves London-Boks anyway!

Er, yes, well ...
As you well know I'm not one to want to add insult to injury but I hope that winger of yours won't be missed to badly. Varnell?
He's been called up now too.


Re: The NZ stadiums in 2011, I can't really see enough of the current grounds meeting the standards to be honest. Not if they expect to have an entire pool hosted by a single region anyway.
The four major centres yes. Waikato would probably be another (That North Harbour would be a wonderful choice goes unsaid ), but we may struggle a bit beyond that.


I suppose we can always parcel out some of the less important games to some of the local high schools.
I won't bother to suggest which games may fall into this category of course ...

As long as none of the Auckland 1st XV's are playing on the day anyway.

[finbar]

And if any of the ABs are feeling homesick, they can play pool matches in Fiji, Samoa or anywhere else in the North Auckland area.

[Havak]

If you are good enough - you are Kiwi enough.

Varndell is a great player - big loss to Tigers but a big gain for England.

It's interesting to look at the differing approaches of the two coaches last weekend. Henry used his bench extensively - as he has all tour. Turnip used one player from it. So Henry via bench use and squad use has 40 players he trusts to step in and do the job for the ABs. Turnip has 16. What a prat Turnip is.

Worrying signs that the showing against the ABs makes him think he is on the right path. Dropping Smith is insane - keeping two primarily defensive centres is insane. Having six players do nothing but shine pine every game is ******* stupid.

I'm getting moderately worked up about Robinson again!

[Andydog]

RWC Fact Sheet

Originally posted by Havak
You did – but I’m not familiar with the current capacity of any Kiwi grounds so could you please fill me in?

Eden Park is 53 000. The House of Pain is 38,000. The Cake Tin is 34,500. Waikato Stadium (Hamilton) 25 800. Lancaster Park 36 500.

It's true that these will struggle to cope with the numbers, not to mention the hotels, but there are plans to upgrade.

I thought I'd attach the fact sheet for the naysayers:

Rugby World Cup 2011 - New Zealand

1. New Zealand’s promises to the IRB
A tournament for players
• An environment where players can perform at their very best
• Rugby facilities that are excellent and close at hand
• A Tournament based on traditional rugby values

A tournament for visiting fans
• A country that will be welcoming and safe

A tournament for fans at home
• Superb broadcasting coverage

A commercially successful tournament
• Unique partnership between rugby and the Government
• Tournament fee guaranteed
• Conservative budget
• Most commercially successful RWC ever
• Tournament clean stadia requirements met

A showcase event
• A Tournament that runs smoothly and seamlessly
• A Tournament that will be media-friendly
• Stable country and national union

A tournament for Rugby everywhere
• We are the safe option
• We are worthy guardians of Rugby’s jewel in the crown
• Global rugby legacy

2. Key Tournament Details
• 48 matches
• 11 potential venues
• Prime knockout matches at an expanded Eden Park

3. Our Guarantee – IRB Tournament Fee
• New Zealand has guaranteed the IRB Tournament Fee
• Underpinned by a partnership with New Zealand Government
• Joint funding commitment from both partners
• Robust budget

4. Broadcasting opportunity
• Utilises the world’s best rugby broadcasters - wealth of talent and experience
• Superb coverage guaranteed
• Full stadia throughout the Tournament
• Link between teams and fans at home
• Popularity of breakfast TV in Europe proven through RWC 2003 in Australia & 2005 Lions tour in New Zealand

5. Tournament Timing
• Initial proposed timing - September/October
• New Zealand offered IRB total flexibility on tournament timing
• Lions Tour proved June/July is a perfectly acceptable time to run a Tournament in New Zealand

6. Infrastructure
• Tourism is New Zealand’s largest earner of foreign exchange
• New Zealand is ranked globally as a prime tourist destination
• 7% annual growth of visitors to New Zealand
• In the last five years accommodation availability in Auckland has increased by 6,000 beds to a total of 36,000
• Even without RWC 2011 a further 10,000 beds are projected to become available over the next five years
• Full spectrum of accommodation and travel options from 5 and 6 star through to budget.
• Unparallelled visitor experiences available.

7. Clean Stadia
• Recognise this was an issue in 2003
• New Zealand has committed to meet the tournament clean stadia requirements and has done so

8. Venues
• Range of venues from large to mid-sized venues – all dedicated rugby venues.
• Recognised by players, officials, broadcasters and media as superb rugby venues during 2005 Lions Series.
• Expansion and upgrade of some venues possible – enhancement on Bid commitment.

9. Eden Park
• Bid lodged with guaranteed capacity of 53,000 for Eden Park
• New Zealand Bid includes proposal to expand to 60,000 capacity
• This will provide:
- Increased capacity – additional 7,000 seats
- Better facilities for players, officials, media and VIPs
• Commitment to consult with Eden Park Neighbours’ Association

[Andydog]

Originally posted by finbar

You weren't in Dunedin when we were!

Billy Connolly went to Dunedin as part of his "World Tour of New Zealand", and as he was saying: A bunch of Scottish Presbyterian settlers boarded their ship and sailed for NZ. They saw the North Island, and a bunch of Maori came down to the water's edge and greeted them with a song and poking out of the tongues, in the process offending them. "Sail further south!" was the cry.

They got to the lower half of the South Island. "It's pissing rain sideways? Perfect! Stop here!"