Business in China

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Oerdin
You don't see a valid reason why South Korea would want to accept fellow Koreans who are fleeing totalitarianism over Chinese who aren't starving to death? For all of China's problems they're not having people's hair turn white or red due to malnutrition.

If that's directed at me. I never said I don't see a valid reason. I just saying its an important condition.

From what Bosh is saying the South would accept them. So I agree that China's policy on the North's refugees is wrong.

As for the people starving to death, I think it's important to provide relief aid to all of the North Koreans who need it, rather than just helping the refugees.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Oerdin


See, know that is the type of stuff that is going to scare off a lot of potential investor in China. I'm sure this is not common (or else few people would invest in China) but the central government really needs to crack down on this type of abuse

The problems that businesspeople can run into in China are routinely reported. This stuff has been going on for years, although I'm not sure how common it is. Seems to be one or two cases a year, IIRC. None of my friends who have factories on the mainland have ever mentioned any problems, or concerns about this type of stuff happening to them.

Investors still go in because the rewards are worth the risk.

[Bosh]

But there are those who seem to only complain, and usually the complaint is that the place they choose to live in isn't like back home.

I've met my share of people like that here and DAMN are they annoying, but I've never seen any indication that Dashi is like that.

In most countries, people fail to see many flaws simply because they think the flaws are normal.

Right, it'd get damn frustrating if there was no-one around who would agree with me when I say that "X is not normal" if that was the case I'm sure I'd vent more on 'poly even though I'd like Korea as much as I do now. Also China is a bit more insulated to the outside world than Korea is so there's less appreciation of other ways of doing things I'd assume (although I'm sure that is changing).

think it's important to provide relief aid to all of the North Koreans who need it

The only problem is that its very hard to get the relief to those who need it in a country that's as corrupt as North Korea. Also having more NKoreans outside of NKorea would allow for more remittancesto be sent back there.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Bosh
I've met my share of people like that here and DAMN are they annoying, but I've never seen any indication that Dashi is like that.

Maybe Dashi has changed. Don't know and don't care.

Originally posted by Bosh
China is a bit more insulated to the outside world than Korea is so there's less appreciation of other ways of doing things

To a degree you're right, although from what I've seen there are a lot of differences between say the south and the interior regions. I'd say it's not so much "less appreciation" as they're learning and incorporating different techniques which takes time.

Too many people expect China to leap into a develop country overnight. That's not going to happen. What does happen is progress, too slow on some fronts, faster on others.

Originally posted by Bosh
The only problem is that its very hard to get the relief to those who need it in a country that's as corrupt as North Korea. Also having more NKoreans outside of NKorea would allow for more remittancesto be sent back there.

The UN is supplying food to a third of North Koreans. Yes, a lot probably gets diverted, but a lot of people are also fed.

As for remittances, with the regime there, I doubt that would happen.

[Mao]

Originally posted by Bosh


The SKorean government is often very lacking in balls when it comes to the refugee issue (the Vietnamese government had to threaten to raise a **** storm if the SKorean government didn't take all of the NKoreans who'd fled the Chinese police into Vietnam and pick up the tab and the SKorean government has been shamefully inactive about pressuring the Chinese government on the issue), HOWEVER. If the Chinese government gave all NKorean refugees the choice of which Korea to be expelled into then China wouldn't have the problem with NKorean refugees sneaking all over the country, smuggling and doing various bits of illegal work that it does now, they'd all line up at the nearest police station to the border to get expelled into South Korea.

However annoying the SKorean government is, they care enough about their international reputation to know how bad it would make them look if they turned away NKorean refugees (something no SKorean government has ever done). If the government wasn't willing to take in all NKorean refugees who could make it to should Korea, the opposition would CRUCIFY them, so yeah SKorea would definately take all of the refugees and pick up the tab is China sent them there. Not doing so is pure evil.

Hmmm...the impression I get from academia (from what I've learned anyway) is that the RoK government doesn't necessarily want to take in the refugees at all. I mean, honestly, think about all the problems a sudden flood of them would cause. I've also heard that in RoK society, NK refugees are very much looked down upon (this being told to me by Koreans, but I've never seen first hand). Is this true from your experience?

Purely speculation here, but do you think the RoK government could be secretly/tacitly supporting the Chinese policy? I mean, they can't do it openly, but it might just be a matter of practicality. Like you said about the Vietnam situation, it might in their interest to not have the huge refugee flood.

On another note about China:

How about instead of boycotting, you do the exact opposite, that is, to invest more and more and give more and more Western influence in China. I mean, this is a problem with small and some medium-sized companies for sure. I am not as sure, however, about if whether or not this is a problem with companies such as Lenova, Haier, Changan, Alibaba, etc. since they do so much with the outside. Maybe that's an alternate solution?

On the matter of racism in America:

Kuci...honestly...you can say that all you want, but it's a form of racism nonetheless. When people see someone white on the street, they don't automatically think "hey...he's Russian" more likely they will say, "heh...he's white/American" whereas if they see me, it'll be "hmm...he's Chinese" you can say it's talking about ethnicity all you want, but that's a copout and covers up an underlying problem. Why are Asians always framed on terms of ethnicity but other white ethnicities aren't nearly perceived as such. I'm not saying you do this, hell, you might just think "hey! he's Russian/English/Dutch!" whatever, but I would contend that most people don't do that. It's great that people like you and Sava are so progressive (or at least claim to be, I can't say if your actions back it up or not since I don't know you; many people say the exact same things you two do and have lots of internalized racism and indirect racism issues (can't remember the exact term for the latter unfortunately), but there are sadly too few like you.

I would happily go into a discussion about race theory/critical race theory if you want. Would you like to? I find it a very interesting topic, controversial and with lots of pros and cons.

[Bosh]

As for remittances, with the regime there, I doubt that would happen.

It already does, mostly from the Korean-Japanese community. They're one of the biggest sources of hard cash for the NKorean government.

Hmmm...the impression I get from academia (from what I've learned anyway) is that the RoK government doesn't necessarily want to take in the refugees at all.

Right they don't want them (which sucks) and don't take any steps to make it easier for the refugees to get there but once they get to South Korea it would be a PR disaster to turn them away. Any South Korean politician who turned away refugees would get his career destroyed, too many South Korean voters still have family in the north...

Purely speculation here, but do you think the RoK government could be secretly/tacitly supporting the Chinese policy?

I would not put it past them. Seems quite likely in fact. However, they could easily be shamed into doing the right thing (which is what Vietnam did). China should just do exactly the same thing that Vietnam did and demand that the SKorean government take the refugees off their hands.

Also being a whitey in Asia gives you a wierd perspective on racism. It can actually be a very nice form of racism at times (often get better service than Koreans get).

[Kuciwalker]

Why is this support for the DPRK necessarily a good thing? Isn't it the slender thread that's holding up KJI's regime (which we can ALL agree is Evil)? Once KJI fell wouldn't you not only be more able to efficiently distribute food, but you'd be able to start rebuilding the DPRK and tensions in the region would go way down?

[Mao]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Why is this support for the DPRK necessarily a good thing? Isn't it the slender thread that's holding up KJI's regime (which we can ALL agree is Evil)? Once KJI fell wouldn't you not only be more able to efficiently distribute food, but you'd be able to start rebuilding the DPRK and tensions in the region would go way down?

The problem is how Kim's regime falls? If it falls violently it'll be mean huge losses in human lives and damage for both the RoK and the DPRK. This price, while in 100 years may be looked upon as "worth it" is a bit hard to explain to all those who may die in a violent upheavel. Maybe the price isn't too much for ideals, but lots of people would rather live poorly and oppressed than die. That seems to just be the way it is a lot of the time.

[Mao]

Originally posted by Bosh

It already does, mostly from the Korean-Japanese community. They're one of the biggest sources of hard cash for the NKorean government.

What's that group called again? Chosen Soren or somesuch? They're still around, right?

Right they don't want them (which sucks) and don't take any steps to make it easier for the refugees to get there but once they get to South Korea it would be a PR disaster to turn them away. Any South Korean politician who turned away refugees would get his career destroyed, too many South Korean voters still have family in the north...

Yeah, it's just one of those politically taboo things...we have em too I guess...*ahem*...Cuba, although Cuba is better than DPRK-relations I think.

I would not put it past them. Seems quite likely in fact. However, they could easily be shamed into doing the right thing (which is what Vietnam did). China should just do exactly the same thing that Vietnam did and demand that the SKorean government take the refugees off their hands.

Yeah, but the RoK government might get pissed off and somehow secretly retaliate for that, it might be the PRC's interest to keep the status quo.

Also being a whitey in Asia gives you a wierd perspective on racism. It can actually be a very nice form of racism at times (often get better service than Koreans get).

Quiet white devil. This is why everywhere I go I encourage the restaurant workers to spit in your food. (sorry DaShi... )

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Mao
The problem is how Kim's regime falls? If it falls violently it'll be mean huge losses in human lives and damage for both the RoK and the DPRK. This price, while in 100 years may be looked upon as "worth it" is a bit hard to explain to all those who may die in a violent upheavel. Maybe the price isn't too much for ideals, but lots of people would rather live poorly and oppressed than die. That seems to just be the way it is a lot of the time.

Well, he's going to fall sometime, obviously. Outside "regime change" is not a viable method, therefore internal reform (or rather, revolt) is the only possibility.

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
Why is this support for the DPRK necessarily a good thing? Isn't it the slender thread that's holding up KJI's regime (which we can ALL agree is Evil)? Once KJI fell wouldn't you not only be more able to efficiently distribute food, but you'd be able to start rebuilding the DPRK and tensions in the region would go way down?

Well in South Korea certain circles (who are currently dominant in the government) looked at how expensive German reunification was and realize that Korean unification will be an order to magnitude worse and they don't want to foot the bill and lose their nicy shiny big screen TVs, the selfish ****s. What they want is for the NKorean regime to become a mini-PRC and get their economy up to China's level before they even think about reunification. They're willing to kowtow to Kim Jung-il's idiocy and prop up his regime since they don't want to deal with the aftermath of its fall.

What should be done is to help people leave NKorea until the system collapses due to lack of skill/young labor (like what happened to East Germany) and then do the right thing about reunification no matter how painful or expensive that might be. The NKorean system is already starting to unravel, it just needs a little help...

may die in a violent upheavel

I doubt the violent upheavel will be any worse than the violence that happened when East Germany fell. It's all about the money, not the lives.

What's that group called again? Chosen Soren or somesuch? They're still around, right?

Yup, still around and running schools although badly in decline. For a long time the North was much more popular among Korean-Japanese since most of them came from bits of SKorea in which the quasi-fascist military dictatorship was none too popular. Also appaling way that the Japanese have treated Korea-Japanese did a lot to radicalize them.

Yeah, but the RoK government might get pissed off and somehow secretly retaliate for that

The SKorean government having the ball to take on the PRC That's a good one

This is why everywhere I go

You don't got to Seoul

[Barnabas]

could the next north korean president be a deng xiaoping style president?

[Bosh]

Originally posted by Brachy-Pride
could the next north korean president be a deng xiaoping style president?

Nah, it looks like it might be the daughter of the old dictator at this point

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Oerdin

I'm sure this is not common (or else few people would invest in China)

Businesses do not often advertise the fact that they lost money on a bad deal or were deceived. Better to reach some sort of settlement or write off the loss rather than risk the bad publicity and possible harm to a company's other ongoing business ventures in China. Also, many of those who get in trouble are small companies, whose failure is not deemed newsworthy. Typically only the most spectacular tales (e.g. involving violence) reach the western press.

(...) but the central government really needs to crack down on this type of abuse if they want to keep the money from investors flowing in.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, part of the problem is the central government's limited ability to rule outside of Beijing. As the saying goes, in China all politics are local.


How common is this? Well, having your life threatened or being abducted is not an everyday occurance -- although it's a far greater danger for ethnically Chinese foreigners doing business here.

Chinese businesses screwing their Joint Venture partners, on the other hand, is a very familiar story. The playbook of tactics is quite voluminous and creative. Just to cite one well-known tactic: the Chinese partner will secretly start their own rival shell firm, using the partnerships's factory and materials to produce goods for their own company, which then underprices and outsells the partnership's product (free factory means low overhead). Swapping in lower quality raw materials after QA checking is another well-known trick.

Here is a translated piece entitled "Corrupt practice by Hong Kong people in mainland China: A Must-Read for small- and medium-sized entrepreneurs setting up factories in mainland China."

It was alledgedly written by a Hong Kong manager who worked in electronics factories on the mainland for ten years. It's a long laundry list of common deceptions used by factory managers. For example, here is the section on wages:

1. Wages

(a) Invisible wages

At peak season, the factory employs 4,000 people; during the off season, the factory employs 1,000. But there can be many invisible workers. For example, only 1,000 people show up to work, but the accounts (including the worker cards and personnel records) shows 1,500 people. All it takes is forging 500 worker cards. This is easiest with a company that pays with cash. As long as the personnel department and the electronic production department go along, it is easy to forge the worker cards and punch them in and out with a card puncher at a hidden location.

(b) Workers who resigned or leave before the probation period

Their worker cards are collected and then entered in full at the end of the month with the full pay going to oneself.

(c) Deposit

When new employees enter the factory, they have to put down a 30 yuan deposit. For various reasons, many people do not get the deposits back when they leave. This may add up to tens of thousands of yuan at the end of the year. These numbers do not appear in the accounting books, and one can therefore pocket the money at the end of the year.

(d) Fines

Fines when employees make mistakes can amount to tens of thousands of yuan at the end of the year. These number do not appear in the accounting books, and one can therefore pocket the money at the end of the year.

(e) Dismissals

When workers are dismissed for serious problems (such as theft), their wages are often withheld. One can forge their signatures and keep their wages.

(f) Hiring

When it is necessary to hire many people to expand production, one looks for an employment agency. For each new hire, 300 yuan is paid to the agency but one can receive a kickback of 100 yuan per head for more than 10,000 yuan per month.

(g) Uniforms

One speaks to the manufacturer's sales person and get a 5 yuan kickback for each uniform. If there are 20,000 persons at a factory, and each person orders two, this amounts to 20,000 yuan.

It's a very different business environment here, and foreigners can easily find themselves fleeced or in legal trouble.