Business in China

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Excuse me? Don't f*cking tell me my personal experiences and those of my friends, and documented experiences of others. There are MANY who will never see me as American, nor my children, nor their children's children.

I've never encountered any of these people, and my school has a vastly disproportionate number of Chinese people.

Kuci attends an elite science and technology HS in Northern Virginia. So hes certainly had a chance to witness interaction between whites and asian-americans among a section of Americas youth. How representative that group is, is another matter.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
So? I get "what kind of a name is _____"

I get that, but I've never sensed any racism in it - of course, the wording is usually more like "is that Polish or something?" (It's Russian.)

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


I get that, but I've never sensed any racism in it -

Sometimes its genuine curiosity, and sometimes it isnt.

[Kontiki]

Which misses my point of if your view seems so negative (which Bosh also acknowledges), why would you stay there voluntarily?

Edt: Directed at Kuci's last post to me.

[Kuciwalker]

Which misses my point of if your view seems so negative (which Bosh also acknowledges), why would you stay there voluntarily?

To make it better? Because he genuinely likes the people he knows there? Job?

[:) Smiley]

Hey Kuci, have you ever used an Asian toilet?

[Sava]

Originally posted by Mao
Quick reply before bed to Sava:

I'm not sure who that post was directed to, but I took great pains in my post to not generalize and say "Americans do this x, y, z" or that "All Americans are a, b, and c." I specifically didn't do that.

And that's a very good progressive attitute Sava, I wish more people had it. *sigh* The sad part is that many people, too many, don't have that attitude.

my post wasn't directed at anyone specifically...

as I was reading the thread, I noticed a few people saying some things that I didn't like, so I felt the need to comment

as an American, especially an American with values like mine, I get very upset at the way non-Americans talk about Americans... usually they generalize and use the ignorant morons as a stereotype for all of us. America is a very diverse country... and unfortunately, there are a lot of ignorant morons that are giving my country a bad name (and one of them is President ) and it upsets me... I just want to remind everyone that there are good, progressive thinking people in America that believe in tolerance and acceptance.

[RGBVideo]

I've never encountered any of these people, and my school has a vastly disproportionate number of Chinese people.

Wait, wasn't this guy a US citizen? Why the hell wasn't the Administration screaming bloody murder about China imprisoning and torturing American citiznes?

Yeah, well drop us a line when you grow up, start working on your own and move out from the suburbs of D.C.; then we'll know when is the time to start taking your world-views seriously.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


No, it's precise. Chinese is an ethnicity as well as a nationality, and there are in fact quite a few Chinese citizens, non-naturalized residents, as well naturalized American citizens at my school. Hell, my girlfriend is second-generation naturalized citizen (her parents brought her here from China when she was nine months old), and she's just as American as anyone else, apart from a slight accent.

Come on Kuci. You're smart. I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Mao was complaining that even though he is American, people think he is a foreigner. They see him as Chinese, rather than Chinese-American, or American.

You said bullsh!t.

In the next message, you then described all the ethnic Chinese as simply Chinese.

You pwn'd yourself. Own goal.

The precise term is ethnic Chinese. In the context of this discussion, if you say someone is Chinese then you're saying they are Chinese citizens.

Your girlfriend is Chinese-American.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Which misses my point of if your view seems so negative (which Bosh also acknowledges), why would you stay there voluntarily?

Exactly.

I never understood the whining migrants. We get them in Hong Kong. They're constantly *****ing about the place, the people, the food, everything.

Now we all ***** about stuff, but the whiners never seem to have anything good to say.

They also tend to have a colonial attitude. They come here and expect people to treat them like lords. They expect everyone to behave like people back home. They expect everything to work like it does in their homeland.

They forget that they are guests in the country.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Kontiki


I don't think China's off limits for discussion at all - can't speak for anyone else. The pattern, though, is that you seem to create a dispropotionate number of theads that point out what I'm sure are perfectly legitimate failings of China - certainly more so than any other poster I can think of.

Describe how hostage taking is perfectly legitimate.

I would think that if I created numerous threads about terrible things that, say, the Burmese society and/or government does, people might start to wonder if I was on a crusade against them. And it would probably seem even more odd if I was a Westerner voluntarily living there teaching English.

Actually, if you were a foreigner (don't know why this has to be about the west, but you're living up to the stereotype) who wasn't living there, I be more suspect of your reasons for posting such things. I post maybe one article about China a month, actually less. I usually post one that catches my attention good or bad and that I think would stimulate interesting conversation. Why that conversation always becomes about me, is what I question.

Now a lot of them tend to be critical, because they are discussing Chinese policies,which are rarely rosy. I'm interested in this and in what other people think about it. I'm interested in whether people will overlook atrocious actions because it concerns China. I'm interested in what other people think about it. If they are not interested, they don't have to post. If they are, they are free to post their opinions. However, I am not free to post any opinions concerning China it seems. I've said before, that I haven't had one thread where I could freely discuss China.

Which misses my point of if your view seems so negative (which Bosh also acknowledges), why would you stay there voluntarily?

God forbid that I may actually like living in China. Does that mean I can't discuss issues here I don't like. Do I have to post everything I like about China? Is that a requirement to discuss the country and it's policies? I'm not leading an anti-Chinese movement as some people seem to be claiming. I'm just trying to have a discussion about something that interests me. Then people like you show up and say, "Oh, you post a negative thread about China. You must hate China." Then cry that I'm not nice enough to them while they are being jerks.

Frankly all I see is a bunch of people jumping to a conclusion based on very little evidence. Unless you truly believe that posting a thread that criticizes some thing means that you must hate that thing, then I don't see where you come off telling me how I feel about China.

[Mao]

TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES! TWO MEN ENTER! ONE MAN LEAVES!

hahaha, ANYway, what would you like to discuss? Other than, say how atrocious the action is, because saying that over and over again isn't much of a "discussion." If you're just spreading information, great! But you seem to be after a discussion...and well...let's discuss then. I seem to be missing what you're trying to discuss.

You say the actions are horrible. I agreed. You said that other people should know. I agree, but with the caveat that those in the know already know about it, and if you don't, well, you're not doing your research.

Now, I proposed we discuss about the solution.

Lesson for foreign companies= Realize that business in China is a whole new kind of animal. You can never be too prepared. There's good opportunities there, but it's not a simple cashcow. The Chinese are businessmen too.

I *really* don't think you're giving businesses enough credit here. This has been known for *quite* a while I'm sure. It seems, however, that some may want to exaggerate the problem, and that's not going to help anyone either. Just the truth is enough.

Chinese government= man you guys got a lot of work to do. Personally torn between a dislike for your style but a hope that you can pull it all together in the end.

Yes, but what needs to happen first is a culling of the corruption at the time. The Shanghai Gang certainly isn't helping things. They may shoot some top-level officials here or there, but I think it's only for show. Maybe things should change from the bottom, for the new generation. Did you try to look up "Leadership Tomorrow" in Beijing? More programs like that, grassroots, should be encouraged. That's perhaps the "safest" way of going about it. What do you think?

American government= where are you on this?

Where do you think the US gov't fits in? Laissez-faire? Fair trade? Overlook abuses in pursuit of the dollar? What should it do, if anything? Keeping in mind the interests of the gov't and all...

[Mao]

However, in the interest of a "complete" response...

Originally posted by DaShi


Why do they have to be positive or negative? Why am I solely responsible for this?

I didn't say you were. You said that you posted positive things about China too, and pointed to the girl-power and the interviews as an example. At least that's how I interpreted it. *shrug*

Where do I bash China?

I don't know if you do. I never said you did. I said other people appear to have the iimpression that you do...a lot. Maybe they make some sense? I don't know. But to dismiss them all as crazy is...well...a bit counterproductive for a "discussion" isn't it?

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Exactly.

I never understood the whining migrants. We get them in Hong Kong. They're constantly *****ing about the place, the people, the food, everything.

Now we all ***** about stuff, but the whiners never seem to have anything good to say.

They also tend to have a colonial attitude. They come here and expect people to treat them like lords. They expect everyone to behave like people back home. They expect everything to work like it does in their homeland.

They forget that they are guests in the country.

Now I'll agree that there are some people like that. They annoy me too. That's why I don't frequent expat forums. I can't stand it. But you seem to slap that label on anyone who says anything you percieve as negative for China. You mercilessly ripped into mindseye once and threatened to ignore him, just because he posted a single opinion about China that you disagreed with. That seems to be your problem. You don't seem to understand the difference between whining and opinions. I believe this is why you are so quick to become sour with anyone who says something you disagree with. I've pointed out your irrational anger several times.

I'm very courteous in this country. I like to talk to people about things here; but if they are not interested or don't want to, I don't push them on it. Occasionally, I come across someone who is spoiling for an argument, but I usually just leave it at we disagree, while they leave it at, "you need to be educated." Those who are open to conversation usually tell me what they think. I share my opinions with them and inquire to whether they are valid or mistaken. I talk with other Chinese teachers about the cheating issue, to see if they have the same problem. I talk with business people to learn what their experiences are. I discussed with some Chinese friends that I felt that the system here seemed upside down at times (from what they were telling me), where the most qualified people had lower position jobs because they spent their time studying while the higher ups worked the guanxi system. They share their opinions on where they agree with this and where they don't and I learn something more about how life is in China. There are some people I'd never discuss this with because I know that they are sensitive about it, and I am a guest.

For the most part, I enjoy my time in China. These threads are not complaints. I don't work in business here, this is just something that I am interested in. I'm also interested in China's social and political development. It doesn't really affect me, but I like to talk about it.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Mao
I *really* don't think you're giving businesses enough credit here. This has been known for *quite* a while I'm sure. It seems, however, that some may want to exaggerate the problem, and that's not going to help anyone either. Just the truth is enough.

I agree. I don't think there has to be warning signs placed everywhere just because of one extreme incident. But I do think that a lot of businesses are blinded by the dollar signs in their eyes when it comes to China. Also, I don't think these type of incidents are justified because they should have known better. If that's the case, no one should deal with China.

Yes, but what needs to happen first is a culling of the corruption at the time. The Shanghai Gang certainly isn't helping things. They may shoot some top-level officials here or there, but I think it's only for show. Maybe things should change from the bottom, for the new generation. Did you try to look up "Leadership Tomorrow" in Beijing? More programs like that, grassroots, should be encouraged. That's perhaps the "safest" way of going about it. What do you think?

The next generation is truly important. They will soon be the one's making the big decisions for this country. It's hard to say what they will be like. Unfortunately, there isn't a system here where the people have a means of peacefully sueing for change. They either have to hope their leaders will do it on their own accord or resort to riots to try to coerce them to make change.

Where do you think the US gov't fits in? Laissez-faire? Fair trade? Overlook abuses in pursuit of the dollar? What should it do, if anything? Keeping in mind the interests of the gov't and all...

In this case, they should be demanding the return of their citizen with some admonishment for the action. Beyond that, I think it would be good if they helped Apex to pay off some of the debt to try to ease tensions between the two countries.