Business in China

[Kuciwalker]

Yeah, DaShi, why do you hate America China?

[Mao]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Bull****.

Excuse me? Don't f*cking tell me my personal experiences and those of my friends, and documented experiences of others. There are MANY who will never see me as American, nor my children, nor their children's children. Do you want books I can recommend on the subject?

Or are you saying bull**** to the "twinkie" and "banana" comments? Those I'm not sure about, but certainly Twinkie seems very much American. I'd happily be educated about it.

[Kuciwalker]

Excuse me? Don't f*cking tell me my personal experiences and those of my friends, and documented experiences of others. There are MANY who will never see me as American, nor my children, nor their children's children.

I've never encountered any of these people, and my school has a vastly disproportionate number of Chinese people.

[Kontiki]

I think it's fair to say your life experiences have been pretty minimal, Kuci.

[pchang]

with the exception of his unparalleled experience with bathrooms.

[Mao]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Excuse me? Don't f*cking tell me my personal experiences and those of my friends, and documented experiences of others. There are MANY who will never see me as American, nor my children, nor their children's children.

I've never encountered any of these people, and my school has a vastly disproportionate number of Chinese people.

Did you ever hear of Vincent Chin? Just curious...

There's several levels of perpetual foreigner stereotype:

1.) Those who will blatantly not believe Asian Americans to be American. Those who ask, "Where are you from?" "No really..." Why don't you ask some of the Asian Americans at your school if they've ever encountered this. I'd be very surprised if none of them ever have (and then want to move to your school immediately haha). Ever hear people shout, "GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM!!!" to Asian Americans? Even if they're 5th generation Americans, people still shout "GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM!" under the assumption that s/he must be foreign, no matter what. Do you believe that this doesn't happen?

2.) Subconscious forms of it. When you think of an "American," most people think of a white man or woman. You don't think of Asian Americans, Blacks, Hispanics, etc. If you live in a community that is more progressive about this, more power to you, I just say what I know from literature I've read and experience.

I can also go through various forms of racism if you want, but lest I bore you...

If you're actually curious about more than anecdotal evidence from either your life or mine, I recommend the following:

Asian American Reader (compiled by Jean Wu, etc.): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/081...books&v=glance

Asian American Dreams (Helen Zia):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374527369/102-2201351-1019315?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

Strangers from a Different Shore (Ron Takaki):

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0316831301/102-2201351-1019315?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

These are all the big names in the field, and very interesting WRT race relations in America focusing on Asian Americans.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Mao
And it is being made available. Posting it on Apolyton isn't necessarily going to help anything, of course...

Why post anything on apolyton? See below.

And how common is this practice? Is it just an anamoly or the norm? It happened once in all of the business dealings in China...so everyone should be on guard for it, but to "expect" it???

No, but people should watch the result of it closely. Could it happen again? Maybe. I think rational people can judge how likely it is to occur again. How this eventually plays out, will also be an indicator of how likely it is to occur again. What will be interesting to see is, if the New York Times does a follow up on this some time in the future.

I don't know what he was thinking. Maybe he thought he'd have more leverage face to face. He certainly was aware of the corruption in China, you'd have to live in a cave to not know. The kidnapping is unreasonable to expect, but considering what has happened before, especially in places like HK...

I'm not so certain most companies doing business in China fully realize what they are getting into. China isn't exactly an open book, and the information that does come out about it is often manufactured to create a positive and attractive image. Does this mean they are in for a rude awakening? If they run into a bad company, sure. Bad things happen. Does it justify illegal activity? No.

The Simpsons
Barney: Moe, you didn't even give a free beer to those freed Iranian hostages.

Moe: Eh, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

He certainly should have known what he was getting into about the corruptoin and lack of rule of law. You make it sound as if China was an dangerous as working in the Congo, where at any time you could just be picked up and kidnapped. You know that's not true. I know that's not true. Why do you think the local government, even the provincial government, would risk this? They certainly would have known that this would've gotten out, especially considering that Ji's an American (is he a USC? I might have missed that). Come now, they're not that naive. What else is behind this? Maybe there was some truly atrocious wrong somewhere? If anything, Beijing has gotten a lot more cautious of it's own image, why would they just allow this? Beijing is nothing if not calculating, and this doesn't seem right, doesn't seem like a worthy gamble. Something appears wrong here.

Maybe Beijing doesn't have all the information. The report from Changhong said that a "fraud masterminded by Mr. Ji put its business, and its 36,000 workers, in grave peril." They probably don't see what the big deal is about. If they do discover major illegal activity by a central government supported company, it's quite likely they'd prefer to cover it up rather than admit there was fault.

Why would those who clearly knew this was wrong or illegal still do it? Well, why is cheating so rampant in China? I was just discussing this with other teachers foreign and Chinese. The answer is the same, the students don't really see it as wrong. They know it is against the rules, but they don't see it as a moral judgement. If you can cheat and get ahead for it, that is a good thing worthy of praise. If caught, you can usually get out of it through guanxi, saving face, or a system that really doesn't enforce the rules or care. At worst, its the risk of the gamble. Don't get me wrong. Hardwork and strong leadership are also admired. But their is a certain respect for the man who "cleverly" beat the system, even if it is by outright cheating. Sort of like a perverted version of ingenuity, which to be fair is also admired in China. Does everyone in China cheat? Of course not. Does the system favor those who do? Sadly, in many cases, yes.

Objection to the article? Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like I was objecting to the article. Merely that disseminating this information only does so good.

See below.

OK, I have no idea what you do, so I'm just going to nod. Sure. Yes.

I do research on Hepatitis B for the medical school branch of Zhejiang University. I've just finished helping design a system to test an enzyme in a natural model as opposed to the artificial (engineered) model currently used. I'm not paid for this, but it will look nice on my resume.

It seems you're very keen on pointing out problems in Chinese society and government, which is good. There are problems, and they should be pointed out. Now take the next step and offer solutions. It's too easy to say, "Well, the first step is to get the word out" because you can say that forever and never brainstorm of a solution. Never mind what you as an individual could do, what do you think would be an ideal road for China as a whole?

Well, I do try to toss out some positive articles and topics about China, like the interviews and the pro-girl movement. Sadly, these draw less attention and quickly fall down the forum. If more positive threads about China appear, I'd be happy to share my anecdotes regarding them. Why is it my responsibility to follow every negative thread with a positive one? Why do I have to justify every thread or post about China that criticizes it, ever so slightly? This is the main distraction tactic that I'm talking about. This is what I'm sick of. Yet, I still believe in my cause and keep doing it, because I know that I am doing something right.

The point of getting the word out and discussing is to encourage others to help find a solution. This is where I find the problem here. I've presented a problem, but you complain that the problem has been presented without a solution. But that's why it's here, to discuss it. To learn from it. Even if we do find a perfect solution, realistically does it matter here? No, this is s'poly. It's mental masturbation. I simply believe that sharing information can be productive, if people are willing to engage in proper discourse. But, yes, this is s'poly, so proper discourse is far and few between.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by pchang
The fundamental problem is the lack of the rule of law in China. This can only be fixed by the Chinese, unless you are advocating an invasion and forcible removal of their current government.

The NYT had an interesting article about Chinese universities. The government is making a strong push to engineers and scientists, and to develop world-class research. They see a need for these people, but also, students who study science are less of a political threat than people who study liberal arts.

The downside of this is presumably less focus on educating more lawyers, which would reduce China's ability to establish rule of law. The article did not mention anything about law schools, so this is a bit of a guess.

There's also the fact that the top Chinese leaders tend to have engineering backgrounds. So they may not fully understand what it takes to establish rule of law.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Excuse me? Don't f*cking tell me my personal experiences and those of my friends, and documented experiences of others. There are MANY who will never see me as American, nor my children, nor their children's children.

I've never encountered any of these people, and my school has a vastly disproportionate number of Chinese people.

Own goal.

Thanks for playing.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


The NYT had an interesting article about Chinese universities. The government is making a strong push to engineers and scientists, and to develop world-class research. They see a need for these people, but also, students who study science are less of a political threat than people who study liberal arts.

Yes, Hu just offered a huge stipend to try to bring back Chinese scientists studying or working oversees.

The downside of this is presumably less focus on educating more lawyers, which would reduce China's ability to establish rule of law. The article did not mention anything about law schools, so this is a bit of a guess.

I don't think that more law school automatically equals rule of law. There are quite a few Chinese lawyers here. But they are bound by the system. They don't make the laws or enforce them. That's the government's job.

There's also the fact that the top Chinese leaders tend to have engineering backgrounds. So they may not fully understand what it takes to establish rule of law.

That's a good point. Perhaps the best move for them would be to bring in experts in these fields that they are weak in.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Own goal.

Thanks for playing.

You mean he posted a question with an obvious answer, so rather than post the answer you post own goal in response to prevent his 100-0 attempt? I don't see it.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Kontiki
It really is quite the hate-on you have for China, DaShi. Why do you stay there?

Let me get this straight. If I post an article that criticizes something horrible done in China, that means I must hate China?

[Mao]

Originally posted by DaShi


Why post anything on apolyton? See below.

My own entertainment. =P

No, but people should watch the result of it closely. Could it happen again? Maybe. I think rational people can judge how likely it is to occur again. How this eventually plays out, will also be an indicator of how likely it is to occur again. What will be interesting to see is, if the New York Times does a follow up on this some time in the future.

Agreed.

I'm not so certain most companies doing business in China fully realize what they are getting into. China isn't exactly an open book, and the information that does come out about it is often manufactured to create a positive and attractive image. Does this mean they are in for a rude awakening? If they run into a bad company, sure. Bad things happen. Does it justify illegal activity? No.

Really? Hmmm...I've been hearing loads of bad things about China's lack of rule of law...manufactured for bad things eh?

Maybe Beijing doesn't have all the information. The report from Changhong said that a "fraud masterminded by Mr. Ji put its business, and its 36,000 workers, in grave peril." They probably don't see what the big deal is about. If they do discover major illegal activity by a central government supported company, it's quite likely they'd prefer to cover it up rather than admit there was fault.

Uh-huh... maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. Maybe they would hide it, or maybe they would try to make an example out of them, who knows.

Why would those who clearly knew this was wrong or illegal still do it? Well, why is cheating so rampant in China? I was just discussing this with other teachers foreign and Chinese. The answer is the same, the students don't really see it as wrong. They know it is against the rules, but they don't see it as a moral judgement. If you can cheat and get ahead for it, that is a good thing worthy of praise. If caught, you can usually get out of it through guanxi, saving face, or a system that really doesn't enforce the rules or care. At worst, its the risk of the gamble. Don't get me wrong. Hardwork and strong leadership are also admired. But their is a certain respect for the man who "cleverly" beat the system, even if it is by outright cheating. Sort of like a perverted version of ingenuity, which to be fair is also admired in China. Does everyone in China cheat? Of course not. Does the system favor those who do? Sadly, in many cases, yes.

There's a program called "Leadership Tomorrow" for BeiDa students. It's very interesting and tackles exactly this type of problem. I can't find their contact now, but a little web digging should do the trick.

See below.



I do research on Hepatitis B for the medical school branch of Zhejiang University. I've just finished helping design a system to test an enzyme in a natural model as opposed to the artificial (engineered) model currently used. I'm not paid for this, but it will look nice on my resume.

Cool beans. *shrug*

Well, I do try to toss out some positive articles and topics about China, like the interviews and the pro-girl movement. Sadly, these draw less attention and quickly fall down the forum. If more positive threads about China appear, I'd be happy to share my anecdotes regarding them. Why is it my responsibility to follow every negative thread with a positive one? Why do I have to justify every thread or post about China that criticizes it, ever so slightly? This is the main distraction tactic that I'm talking about. This is what I'm sick of. Yet, I still believe in my cause and keep doing it, because I know that I am doing something right.

I missed your pro-girl thingy, but how are the interviews "positive"? They're nice and fun, but positive or negative? It must also be very nice to have such moral righteousness behind you... Maybe that everyone thinks that you're so negative about China means something...wouldn't it be more useful if you could at least appear unbiased so then more people would listen? I mean, it appears that lots of people just assume you're a China-basher, and treat you as such. Woudln't it be a lot more effective to be seen as a neutral observer? Since spreading information is so useful and all, we wouldn't want to put it to deaf ears now, would we?

The point of getting the word out and discussing is to encourage others to help find a solution. This is where I find the problem here. I've presented a problem, but you complain that the problem has been presented without a solution. But that's why it's here, to discuss it. To learn from it. Even if we do find a perfect solution, realistically does it matter here? No, this is s'poly. It's mental masturbation. I simply believe that sharing information can be productive, if people are willing to engage in proper discourse. But, yes, this is s'poly, so proper discourse is far and few between.

I don't complain that it's been presented without a solution. I complain that you have a problem, great, now what're you going to do about it? It doesn't take a genius to point out everything wrong with the world, but there are those select few who actually try to find solutions that will make a difference. Maybe you're among them, maybe I am, maybe neither of us are. On the one hand you ask for discussion, yet on the other you say it doesn't matter...so what's the point? To BS around? Great...weeeeeee

Praytell, let us be useful then. Now what should we learn from this? What is the lesson that foreign companies should take it? What about the Chinese or American govenrment? Let's discuss then.

[Kontiki]

Not at all. It just seems to be a pattern with you. I have nothing against you personally, I certainly don't side with UR, Tingkai or whomever else is on your **** list and I don't doubt the validity of what you post (nor, really, would I be likely to verify it). Just pointing out as a disinterested observer what it looks like.

[DaShi]

Kontiki, I hope this is helpful for you, I know you're a busy man:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141249

Slowwhand needs to be told that he hates Indonesia.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140491

Poor Imran hates America, better let him know.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140325

Aivo½so seems to hate Tarja Turunen. Don't know who that is, but his obvious hate for him still needs to be pointed out. Why does he stay in a country with people like that?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141381

Looks like DanS hates France. You know what you have to do.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141642

Bosh sure hates America doesn't he. Must be why he's in S. Korea. But you'd better make sure that he knows that.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141430

Wow! Odin's really putting the hate on the US. You're needed in that thread.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138389

Asher supporting an IE competitor?!! He must hate Microsoft. Does he know? You're the man to tell him.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141668

Looks like Lawrence of Arabia hates Switzerland just like the opponents of the Vietnam War hated America. You'd better let him know before he becomes a hippy and hates more stuff.