Business in China

[Mao]

Originally posted by DaShi


It's difficult for foreigners to work within the Chinese system (oh for the days of communist aggitators). The Chinese system needs to be fixed by the Chinese themselves. Unfortunately, most of them don't really see the problem. Even if this was made public in China, many people would simply see it as being clever.

C'mon...that seems a bit like a copout. It needs to be fixed by the Chinese themselves? Fine, what would you suggest they do? How?

Although, many (Chinese, foreign, whatever) would see this as a situation of a (at least they believe they were) wronged party utilizing whatever resources it could to get what is owed to it. Favors and whatnot, we do it too, but the difference is that these favors come from the government, which is a problem. That's one distinction that needs to be made, but how?

The most power foreigners have in this situation is to boycott China. Consumers can avoid Chinese made or affiliated goods. Unfortunately, that may hurt the honest companies, but that's assuming there are any. Foreigner investors should be aware of what kind of environment they are entering and are they willing to accept the ramifications of it. Of course, as Oerdin said, India, and probably Brazil, may just become better alternatives.

Yeah... I wish...no one wants to know how the sausage is made, sadly. I mean, think of the beef and meats we buy and how there are free-range alternatives, yet most people still buy the meat off of animals kept in cages their entire lives. It's not like they can't afford the free-range stuff (I don't think), they just don't care. There are so many companies in China, you're really going to imply that none of them are honest? Come now. It seems that these days a lot of (maybe most, damned if I know) foreign companies already know such things. This isn't a secret anymore, and if you invest in China without taking this into consideration it's your own fault for not doing basic research. It just seems that many companies accept these possibilities and just don't care. AsiaTime did a whole issue on this, comparing India and China, and it was a huge problem, certainly well-known enough for a giant such as Time magazine to make a story of it. India actually was projected to rocket ahead of China in high-tech industries, but China would retain its lead in textiles and such for decades to come.

I think the most important part is getting the information out there. This is why there are coverups and apologists. To hide these problems so that people can't rationally think about them. That's UR's and Tingkai's tactic. If they can distract people from the issue, then people won't do what they can to address it. Businesses should be made aware. Consumers should be made aware. If international agencies, such as the WTO, have authority here, they should be made aware.

Coverups and apologists...OK...but how many people believe them? AsiaTime certainly didn't seem to. I can't speak of what UR and Tingkai do, so uhhh...sure... The bottom line, I believe though, is that businesses are aware, customers are aware, they just don't care it seems. I think you might be underestimating how widespread this information is, and how widely accepted it is. I don't know too much of the WTO so I can't comment on how much leverage they have.

The basic problem here seems to be that China needs to change, and maybe the only way to do that is to jolt them out of their current state, which is to say, boycott, etc. so that they do change their ways. Now, maybe there's a less painful way, I'm not sure. Maybe China can change fast enough, maybe it'll be left behind, I don't know. There'll be many "little people" (workers, etc.) hurt by this that are pretty innocent, but they pay the price of governmental ****ups and such. Meh, thems the breaks of being born in the wrong place, right? Is there a way to punish those at the top only? Those that actually did do wrong? Maybe if the boycotts are strong enough, it'll lead to popular unrest, and we all know how well that goes in China (who knows, it may end up like Russia if these boycotts have enough of a dent...not that realistically they ever will).

Sorry, I went on a bit longer than I intended to, I Just keep remembering a "Frontline" thing about China I saw a few years back interviewing various people in China. There was one laid-off factory worker who said something to the effect of, "I still don't know why I was fired. I worked here for my entire life. I always went to work on time. I always did my job. I never even took a vacation. I just don't understand." Stories like this become more and more common...heh, it's not their fault, but that's what happens in a changing environment.

(Yes, the last paragraph has absolutely nothing to do with this thread)

[Tingkai]

Dashie wrote, according to Mao post:"To hide these problems so that people can't rationally think about them. That's UR's and Tingkai's tactic. If they can distract people from the issue, then people won't do what they can to address it. "

This is why I keep Dashie on my ignore list.

Dashie wants to blame others for the fact that he is incapable of rational thought.

Time and time again, I have acknowledged the problems within China, potential solutions and the challenges of solving the problems facing China.

To suggest that I try to hide China's problems is ludicrous and a complete lie. But that's what Dashie does all time, lie about what other posters are saying.

Meanwhile, Dashie just likes to post anything that is anti-Chinese, insult Chinese people, etc. He has never shown any interest in seeing China improve. He just needs something to bash.

[Mao]

Originally posted by DaShi
Plus, I've seen the way oversees Chinese are treated here in regards to other foreigners. College students regularly called an American born Chinese teacher at my previous job a banana (yellow the outside and white on the inside) and complained that he wasn't foreign to be their foreign English teacher, despite his upbringing oversees and his education major.

Heh, I'm going through this and don't even care that much. This also isn't the first time you've heard the term "banana" or "Twinkie" is it? I think those terms are actually an import from the US. Besides, many Americans also will never see a Chinese person (whether he just got off the plane or is 8th generation) as being American. That problem is very widespread in the US too, how do we solve it there? Since we're such a freer society and such, it should be easier, right? Yet it's been 100+ years since large waves of Asian immigration, but people still come to me in the US and ask:
"So, where are you from?"

"[insert any other American city here]"

"No, really, where are you from?"

*angry look*

[DRoseDARs]

Do you have any accent, Mao? A lady friend's family (both parents and grandparents, don't know about the rest) are from China but she was born and raised here in the US. She doesn't have a trace of any accent (at least none different from my own if I have one) so I never had reason to think nor ever thought she was foreign-born. And this was before she told me she was USAmerican by birth. To me, looks don't necessarily mean anything, it's the accents that give better clues to a person's place of origin.

[DRoseDARs]

Another example of this: A former best friend, who is white, was born and raised here in the US. His entire family is South African (moved to the US around the fall of the apartheid). They all have that accent unique to South African English... except him. I had no idea his family was from there until he told me and I heard them speak.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Dashie wrote, according to Mao post:"To hide these problems so that people can't rationally think about them. That's UR's and Tingkai's tactic. If they can distract people from the issue, then people won't do what they can to address it. "

Time and time again, I have acknowledged the problems within China, potential solutions and the challenges of solving the problems facing China.

Never once to me. Even when we were on better terms. In fact, whenever I post a thread about China or engage in a discussion about China, you (despite having me on your ignore list) can't seem to avoid trying to turn it into a discussion about me. An example: you last post. Hence, my point. I have nothing further to discuss with you on this matter, unless you wish to discuss the topic.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Mao
C'mon...that seems a bit like a copout. It needs to be fixed by the Chinese themselves? Fine, what would you suggest they do? How?

How about such companies stopping the type of behavior in the article? How about a public outcry against the company? How about the government admitting there is a serious problem here and actually doing something to correct it and punish those involved?

Although, many (Chinese, foreign, whatever) would see this as a situation of a (at least they believe they were) wronged party utilizing whatever resources it could to get what is owed to it.

Resources: Using the local government as it's own private police force. Threatening someone's life unless they gave up their company. Asking for more money than owed, with little evidence to support that amount is owed. So they feel wronged. First, they've got to prove it.

There is no excuse for this behavior. I don't believe that this company believes that they were wronged. I think that they poorly ran their business and made promises that they couldn't keep (more profit than was expected to increase stock). When this came back to bite them, they tried to get more money from Apex. When Apex refused to give them 3x the money they believed they owed, Changhong took Mr. Ji as a hostage. How can you justify that?

Yeah... I wish...no one wants to know how the sausage is made, sadly. I mean, think of the beef and meats we buy and how there are free-range alternatives, yet most people still buy the meat off of animals kept in cages their entire lives. It's not like they can't afford the free-range stuff (I don't think), they just don't care. There are so many companies in China, you're really going to imply that none of them are honest? Come now. It seems that these days a lot of (maybe most, damned if I know) foreign companies already know such things. This isn't a secret anymore, and if you invest in China without taking this into consideration it's your own fault for not doing basic research. It just seems that many companies accept these possibilities and just don't care. AsiaTime did a whole issue on this, comparing India and China, and it was a huge problem, certainly well-known enough for a giant such as Time magazine to make a story of it. India actually was projected to rocket ahead of China in high-tech industries, but China would retain its lead in textiles and such for decades to come.

If you disagree, and feel that doing so requires providing a solution, what do you propose instead? My argument is that these things shouldn't just be swept under the rug. That they should be made available so that people can decide what can be done. The issue here is that this goes a bit beyond what most people expect when they do business in China. Now they should. But even if it happens again, it's still not right. Believe it or not, there are illegal business practices.

Coverups and apologists...OK...but how many people believe them? AsiaTime certainly didn't seem to. I can't speak of what UR and Tingkai do, so uhhh...sure... The bottom line, I believe though, is that businesses are aware, customers are aware, they just don't care it seems. I think you might be underestimating how widespread this information is, and how widely accepted it is. I don't know too much of the WTO so I can't comment on how much leverage they have.

I don't believe that many people are aware. Mr. Ji went back to China because he thought it better to discuss the problems between his company and Changhong face to face. That simple and reasonable decision has nearly cost him his life and certainly his company. Mr. Ji was born in China. Shouldn't he have known what he was getting into?

The basic problem here seems to be that China needs to change, and maybe the only way to do that is to jolt them out of their current state, which is to say, boycott, etc. so that they do change their ways. Now, maybe there's a less painful way, I'm not sure. Maybe China can change fast enough, maybe it'll be left behind, I don't know. There'll be many "little people" (workers, etc.) hurt by this that are pretty innocent, but they pay the price of governmental ****ups and such. Meh, thems the breaks of being born in the wrong place, right? Is there a way to punish those at the top only? Those that actually did do wrong? Maybe if the boycotts are strong enough, it'll lead to popular unrest, and we all know how well that goes in China (who knows, it may end up like Russia if these boycotts have enough of a dent...not that realistically they ever will).

We both agree that the solution isn't a simple one. What I'm confused about is your objection to the article.

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Mao


Heh, I'm going through this and don't even care that much. This also isn't the first time you've heard the term "banana" or "Twinkie" is it? I think those terms are actually an import from the US. Besides, many Americans also will never see a Chinese person (whether he just got off the plane or is 8th generation) as being American. That problem is very widespread in the US too, how do we solve it there? Since we're such a freer society and such, it should be easier, right? Yet it's been 100+ years since large waves of Asian immigration, but people still come to me in the US and ask:
"So, where are you from?"

"[insert any other American city here]"

"No, really, where are you from?"

*angry look*

Let me ask you this. If you were a teach at a university and the students when to the dean and complained that you were too Asian to be teaching them. How would you feel? What would you do? What could you do? A lot more than in China. The sad truth in China is that foreigners can often get better jobs and paid more than their Chinese equivalents. I don't agree with this or even like it, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be part of the alternative, guanxi. Actually, my current work is pro bono. I'm doing it for the experience only. But I can guarantee that a Chinese-American wouldn't have even been given this opportunity. They'd still see him as Chinese, which means he's placed in a guanxi hierarchy. Usually low, since guanxi takes time to develop.

[Mao]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Do you have any accent, Mao? A lady friend's family (both parents and grandparents, don't know about the rest) are from China but she was born and raised here in the US. She doesn't have a trace of any accent (at least none different from my own if I have one) so I never had reason to think nor ever thought she was foreign-born. And this was before she told me she was USAmerican by birth. To me, looks don't necessarily mean anything, it's the accents that give better clues to a person's place of origin.

I was raised in the States essentially so I'm pretty sure I don't have an accent. Maybe a slight northeastern one...*shrug* which I don't mind too much

[Mao]

Originally posted by DaShi


How about such companies stopping the type of behavior in the article? How about a public outcry against the company? How about the government admitting there is a serious problem here and actually doing something to correct it and punish those involved?

Public outcry? OK, how do we do that? Dissiminate information in China, of course. And how should we go about such things? There are ways, certainly, message boards and the like, but by and large that's hard to do. It's all linked to a bigger problem with the Chinese government itself, which, if you could solve, you should be working for State.

Resources: Using the local government as it's own private police force. Threatening someone's life unless they gave up their company. Asking for more money than owed, with little evidence to support that amount is owed. So they feel wronged. First, they've got to prove it.

Sadly, this is what it's deteriorated to sometimes, in some places.

There is no excuse for this behavior. I don't believe that this company believes that they were wronged.

Really. OK...

I think that they poorly ran their business and made promises that they couldn't keep (more profit than was expected to increase stock).

OK...you think they did...and the NYTimes might even agree...but how do you, or I, know what really transpired? It'd be incredibly easy if I were to run an American company, get in some hot water, and then claim that the Chinese government's cheating me, because we're all very eager to believe it, right? It happens so much, of course it happened here!

When this came back to bite them, they tried to get more money from Apex. When Apex refused to give them 3x the money they believed they owed, Changhong took Mr. Ji as a hostage. How can you justify that?

Yes well, I'm not going to assume I know what happened here or there. You might very well be correct, but I don't know.

Of course, the hostage taking can't be really justified.

If you disagree, and feel that doing so requires providing a solution, what do you propose instead? My argument is that these things shouldn't just be swept under the rug.

Fine, but for whom? For foreigners? The NYT reported it! That's not really sweeping under the rug... I also have little doubt that the higher echelons of government know of this. So who else do you need to tell?

That they should be made available so that people can decide what can be done.

And it is being made available. Posting it on Apolyton isn't necessarily going to help anything, of course...

The issue here is that this goes a bit beyond what most people expect when they do business in China. Now they should. But even if it happens again, it's still not right. Believe it or not, there are illegal business practices.

And how common is this practice? Is it just an anamoly or the norm? It happened once in all of the business dealings in China...so everyone should be on guard for it, but to "expect" it???

I don't believe that many people are aware. Mr. Ji went back to China because he thought it better to discuss the problems between his company and Changhong face to face.

I don't know what he was thinking. Maybe he thought he'd have more leverage face to face. He certainly was aware of the corruption in China, you'd have to live in a cave to not know. The kidnapping is unreasonable to expect, but considering what has happened before, especially in places like HK...

That simple and reasonable decision has nearly cost him his life and certainly his company. Mr. Ji was born in China. Shouldn't he have known what he was getting into?

He certainly should have known what he was getting into about the corruptoin and lack of rule of law. You make it sound as if China was an dangerous as working in the Congo, where at any time you could just be picked up and kidnapped. You know that's not true. I know that's not true. Why do you think the local government, even the provincial government, would risk this? They certainly would have known that this would've gotten out, especially considering that Ji's an American (is he a USC? I might have missed that). Come now, they're not that naive. What else is behind this? Maybe there was some truly atrocious wrong somewhere? If anything, Beijing has gotten a lot more cautious of it's own image, why would they just allow this? Beijing is nothing if not calculating, and this doesn't seem right, doesn't seem like a worthy gamble. Something appears wrong here.

We both agree that the solution isn't a simple one. What I'm confused about is your objection to the article.

Objection to the article? Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like I was objecting to the article. Merely that disseminating this information only does so good.

Let me ask you this. If you were a teach at a university and the students when to the dean and complained that you were too Asian to be teaching them. How would you feel? What would you do? What could you do? A lot more than in China.

I didn't think that China was worse than America, certainly the situation is better in America. My mere point was that it is a problem in America as well, but at least it can't be officially institutionalized. Although institutional racism certainly exists. On another note, I would've expected that to happen. I've been hearing about such things as this for a very long time, and wouldn't have been surprised if it did happen. Why I'd put myself in that position in the first plae I don't know.

The sad truth in China is that foreigners can often get better jobs and paid more than their Chinese equivalents. I don't agree with this or even like it, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to be part of the alternative, guanxi.

True, very true. Although the caveat should be added that this applies mainly to white foreigners, maybe Hispanics, and definitely not Blacks. You don't like it or agree with it, and you also don't like the alternative. So make a new alternative. How do we set about China going a "third way."

Actually, my current work is pro bono. I'm doing it for the experience only. But I can guarantee that a Chinese-American wouldn't have even been given this opportunity. They'd still see him as Chinese, which means he's placed in a guanxi hierarchy. Usually low, since guanxi takes time to develop.

OK, I have no idea what you do, so I'm just going to nod. Sure. Yes.

It seems you're very keen on pointing out problems in Chinese society and government, which is good. There are problems, and they should be pointed out. Now take the next step and offer solutions. It's too easy to say, "Well, the first step is to get the word out" because you can say that forever and never brainstorm of a solution. Never mind what you as an individual could do, what do you think would be an ideal road for China as a whole?

[pchang]

The fundamental problem is the lack of the rule of law in China. This can only be fixed by the Chinese, unless you are advocating an invasion and forcible removal of their current government.

[Mao]

So if you were Chinese, how would you fix it?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Mao
Heh, I'm going through this and don't even care that much. This also isn't the first time you've heard the term "banana" or "Twinkie" is it? I think those terms are actually an import from the US. Besides, many Americans also will never see a Chinese person (whether he just got off the plane or is 8th generation) as being American.

Bull****.

[Kuciwalker]

Wait, wasn't this guy a US citizen? Why the hell wasn't the Administration screaming bloody murder about China imprisoning and torturing American citiznes?

[Kontiki]

It really is quite the hate-on you have for China, DaShi. Why do you stay there?