Poland has voted

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
What? When did you learn to respect the elections of your member states?

Never.

However, we tolerate anything that:
1. Doesn't remind us of nazism
2. Doesn't challenge the technocrat-held vision for Europe.

You don't have to respect democracy to let this government live. You just have not to care one notch about it (the EU has no respect whatsoever for the voice of the people - it generally ignores it, and occasionally fears it; Clearly, this will be an "ignore" situation, like in 99% of the elections).

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Heresson
I've been thinking about a thread about polish politics, but will say what I have to say here.
In 1993, ex-communists won the lctions and gouverned till 1997. They ruled well, the economy was blooming and stuff. In 1997, they got almost half more votes in last elections (despite wild attacks on them b y right-wingers, including falsely accusing very popular until then prime minister of being a Russian spy), but lost to a coalition of many right-winged parties united in hatred against them. As Kaczynski himself (I don't remmber which one, though; they are twins) described them: party of "TKM", "Teraz, kurwa, my"; "now it's our turn, dammit" (a very mild translation". The economy cooled, their rules were inefficient and corrupted. In result, ex-communists swallowed the smaller left-winged party and won the next election gathering 40% votes (their support reached 50% at some time). The right-wing coalition and liberals spawned several smaller parties, including
LPR - "A league of polish families" - a scary right-winged-clerical-nationalistic party
PiS - "Law and Justice"
PO - "Civic Platform".
Still, ex-communists (SLD) had steady support until "Rywin's affair". Lew Rywin is a reknown person in film industry. Anyway, all of the sudden the biggest newspaper in Poland, a liberal one, announced that a half year before mr Rywin came to demand money for benevolence of "a group holding power". A parliamentary comission was created to investigate this matter. Unfortunatelly, the comission session's were on the air. In result, the comission turned into a theatre of right-winged and liberal politicians attacking SLD. I thought it was bad, until the next comissions. The most biased people became the members, and it wwas really bad. SLD was in constant defensive against right-wingers, liberals and left-winged populists of "Self-defence" party, as new affairs came out. Well, "Self-defence" is made of criminals mostly, and its leaders boasts he has 150 ongoing trials, but people do not expect much of them. Liberals had their affairs too, but...
SLD was so dumb to, under accusations of being supported by state TV, give up the reins of TV to right-wings. Private tv channels are liberal/right winged as well. Also, SLD agreed to resign of majority in parliamentary comissions, which ment that most ridiculous small extrem right-winged parties will have as much to say there as them. Anyway, it looked for example like that: a reknown liberal politician made her son the first on parliamentary election list in her district, gave work to him and stuff. TVs were praising her for resigning after she was criticised. But she didn't resign because she felt sorry! She openly said that she resigns because she's angry with the others of leadership of her party that she's done sth wrong. If it was a left-winged politician, it'd have been a great affair. But she was liberal - so she was praised and the leadership of the party was praised.
It's hard to describe how one of the parliamentary comission looked. I may do it, so You could laugh, but it's more scary. What's important is that they started hunting for extremly popular left-winged president and other left winged politicians, esp. if they had a chance in presidential elections, like the wife of the ex-president or marshall of the parliament. It was disgusting. But it worked, that's the most sad part. But I will describe what they've done to the mentioned ex-marshall of parliament, ex-prime minister etc, one of my favourite politicians (who makes mistakes, though).
The comission tried to drown him in accusations before, but it only succeeded with help of a woman. Though it had nothing in comon with its work, the comission started searching the declarations of possesions of his. And they've found a mistake: he had sold actions at the beginning of january, and didn't include them in that year's declaration. Nothing really important, a third of parliamentarists made some mistakes in their declarations, including some of the members of the comission and the leaders of their parties. However, all of the sudden the liberal representative, an officier of secret services, announced that he has a proof that it was not a mistake. It was brought by ex-assistant of mr Cimoszewicz (the ex-pm, ex-marshall of the parliament, misnistry of foreign affair and at that time the most popular candidate to the president's office). It soon turned out that the document she brought was falsified by means of the sign she's once stolen, unlike her letter in which she demanded from Cimoszewicz to give her husband, working in secret services as well, some office in embassy in Italy. Cimoszewicz did not do it, and she was heard saying that she'll take her revenge for that.
Also, soon it turned out that the one who discovered her was another secret service officier and liberal politician in one person... and sevral other matters. But until then, speculations and accusations emerged, and I assure You TV was not very objective. When Cimoszewicz was accused of having a romance with this woman, he got angry and called the newsreporter a pig, which did not help him as well. Eventually, he resigned, and so Tusk and Kaczynski remained at the field.
I'll have to add that meanwhile, SLD splitted: almost entire old guard created a new party, not very successful. Also, there's old liberal (more reasonable; not successful) and new liberal (more right-winged; it's the one I'm always talking about here) party.

Why did Kaczynski win over Tusk? Thanks to support from mentioned right-winged populist Lepper, and thanks to dirty campaign. Not that Tusk played himself fair with Cimoszewicz. You see, Tusk's grandpa, a Pole and Kaszub, was a citizen of Free City Gdansk/Danzig and as such, was forced into Wermacht during the war. It was revealed (I'm not sure by who, but it seems that by Kaczynskis) shortly before the elections and surely influenced them.

I didn't understand much. Is this "summary" correct:
The communists were a widely favored party
A smear campaign from emerging right-wingers and behavioral mistakes of said communists brought them down
Right-wingerism continues to rise, thanks to the influence of mass media.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Poland itself buys 70% of its natural gas from Russia.

IIRC, they buy something like 90% actually.

And as of now, Germany buys loads of oil and gas from Russia too. I would call both of that pretty dependent already now. That's nothing bad, it's called trading for mutual benefit.

Russian-German cooperation

The new pipeline changes nothing substantial.

I dissagree. New pipeline changes things too much for Poland:
a) Poland lose tarrif revenues (****loads of money, 'cause Polish tariffs for gas traffic are something. Perhaps one of the highest tariffs in EU)
b) Poland could no longer blackmail Russia with: "Pay as much as we wish 'cause otherwise you would lose more bucks, since your gas goes to Europe through OUR territory only.
c) Poland could continue to scream and spit on Russia, while with the new pipe Russia could always stop delivering our gas to them and let them freeze and whine for all they care, beacuse we will have another (non-polish) route to EU for our gas.

Also, I don't see a sane reason, why we should ask anyone, where to secure our future energy resources, or what way we should direct our pipelines.

We shouldn't, but Poles think that Poland is the center of the Universe and everybody should ask them for any reason. In a contest for the most arrogant nation Poland would beat even US.

Some have no qualms to buy their stuff from such paragons of freedom and democracy like Saudi Arabia. Others wage wars for it, we trade and build pipelines. What is better?

Russian-German strategic partnership is better.

edit: I guess I drunk to much beer yesterday.

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


so then why does Russia object to pipelines from central asia and azerbaijan that bypass Russia?

For different reason of course. Russia has world's largest stokpile of natural gas. Poland on the other hand buys most of its gas. How their reasons could be the same? The first one is trader, the second is buyer.
Anyhow, there is no such hysteria in Russia. Most of the Russians (including me) have no idea how Russia objects pipelines you've mentioned, how those pipes threat our country and why it's a shame and treachery to don't get Russian permission for begging of construction outside of the Russian territory.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Serb
I dissagree. New pipeline changes things too much for Poland:
a) Poland lose tarrif revenues (****loads of money, 'cause Polish tariffs for gas traffic are something. Perhaps one of the highest tariffs in EU)
b) Poland could no longer blackmail Russia with: "Pay as much as we wish 'cause otherwise you would lose more bucks, since your gas goes to Europe through OUR territory only.
c) Poland could continue to scream and spit on Russia, while with the new pipe Russia could always stop delivering our gas to them and let them freeze and whine for all they care, beacuse we will have another (non-polish) route to EU for our gas.

Well, well... "Der Spiegel" writes about the same, although in a clearly more careful tone.

Polands foreign policy towards Russia is pretty hostile and towards Germany not much friendlier. Whether they have a good reason or not is irrelevant. Of course it is good for Poland to hold the Russian gas delivery into Western Europe hostage. They are in the comfortable position to be able to maintain their unfriendly policy while not being in danger to have their gas deliveries cut. The new pipeline would change this position fundamentally.

Perhaps it is time for Poland to realize, that not moaning and blackmailing secures good trade relations, but a solid and reliable foreign policy.

[Serb]

Exactly

They brought this on themselves, nobody elese. The new pipeline was the most logical retaliation to Polish policy towards Russia. Their fault.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


Well, well... "Der Spiegel" writes about the same, although in a clearly more careful tone.

Polands foreign policy towards Russia is pretty hostile and towards Germany not much friendlier. Whether they have a good reason or not is irrelevant. Of course it is good for Poland to hold the Russian gas delivery into Western Europe hostage. They are in the comfortable position to be able to maintain their unfriendly policy while not being in danger to have their gas deliveries cut. The new pipeline would change this position fundamentally.

Perhaps it is time for Poland to realize, that not moaning and blackmailing secures good trade relations, but a solid and reliable foreign policy.

The Baltic states appear to share Polands concerns. Perhaps its a good time for them to "shut up" as y'all say in Europe.

[Serb]

It's not surprising, since this pipeline goes through their territory as well, they are dependent on Russian gas just like Poland is and have the same extremely hostile policy towards Russia.
Yeah, they have to either change their policy towards Russia or forget about our gas (and their fancy growing economies. If we'll assume that Russia stop gas delivery to those states just for a week, we'll see a lot of action there. I can assure you).
If they want to maintain their attitude towards Russia, they have to find another source of hydrocarbones. Which could be a good thing for the entire humankind, btw.

[Saras]

I love how russians see their gas and oil as charity, and DON'T see the USD and EUR they get as something worth mentioning

What do you Russians actually PRODUCE that people are willing to buy outside Russia? All you can do is drill holes in the ground with US equipment and sell the earths bounty. You have NO other major source of hard currency revenue than mineral exports, so please spare everyone the hydrocarbon blackmail BS. Everyone can get their hydrocarbonds elsewhere, and YOU guys CAN'T get your dollars and euros for anything else BUT hydrocarbons.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
The Baltic states appear to share Polands concerns. Perhaps its a good time for them to "shut up" as y'all say in Europe.

I know only one who said this. However it is irrelevant, so save your snide remarks.

It is neither Polands nor the Baltic states' matter where other countries buy their gas and which way it is delivered. If they fear to be cut off from delivery, it might be a good idea not to piss off the seller. Or, if they feel the urge to piss him off, to be consequent and buy their stuff elsewhere.

[Odin]

Originally posted by Saras
I love how russians see their gas and oil as charity, and DON'T see the USD and EUR they get as something worth mentioning

What do you Russians actually PRODUCE that people are willing to buy outside Russia? All you can do is drill holes in the ground with US equipment and sell the earths bounty. You have NO other major source of hard currency revenue than mineral exports, so please spare everyone the hydrocarbon blackmail BS. Everyone can get their hydrocarbonds elsewhere, and YOU guys CAN'T get your dollars and euros for anything else BUT hydrocarbons.

Don't try to convince him, he is so brainwashed by Putin's propaganda machine he thinks the West is the spawn of Satan out to distroy Mother Russia.

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Saras
You have NO other major source of hard currency revenue than mineral exports, so please spare everyone the hydrocarbon blackmail BS. Everyone can get their hydrocarbonds elsewhere, and YOU guys CAN'T get your dollars and euros for anything else BUT hydrocarbons.

And you have? I can't remember to have seen anything from Lithuania in a store. Ever.

Wait, I lied. I saw some stuff once. That was back in the 80's, when I was shopping in Leningrad.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
I love how russians see their gas and oil as charity, and DON'T see the USD and EUR they get as something worth mentioning

And I love to see how much pissed off you are.

What do you Russians actually PRODUCE that people are willing to buy outside Russia?

All kinds of weapons, heavy machinery, aluminum, steel, fertilizers, jets, planes, spaceships... have I mentioned WEAPONS?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph


And you have? I can't remember to have seen anything from Lithuania in a store. Ever.

Wait, I lied. I saw some stuff once. That was back in the 80's, when I was shopping in Leningrad.

Sprats?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Odin


Don't try to convince him, he is so brainwashed by Putin's propaganda machine he thinks the West is the spawn of Satan out to distroy Mother Russia.

Says who actually never seen Putin's propaganda. If you really belive what you've said, it's you are who is brainwashed.